RobinBHM
Established Member
Climate change and our finite resources means at some point there will have to be an end to economic growth….will that mean and end to capitalism?
A little truth for a change.
- Thread starter Phil Pascoe
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...And would that be a bad thing?
Jacob
New Luddism. Wake up and resist.
End to "economic growth" means "capitalism" having to be constrained in various ways.
But already is and always has been, so it's not a radical idea but it does mean much more state control, but coupled with investment in economic growth of green technology and infrastructure.
Swings and roundabouts and much better than economic collapse under climate change.
Is de-growth the future? https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/social-sciences/degrowth
artie
Sawdust manufacturer.
According to Copilot,
A 15-minute city is an urban planning concept that envisions a city where most daily necessities and services—such as work, shopping, education, healthcare, and leisure—are easily accessible within a 15-minute walk, bike ride, or public transit ride from any point in the city
How is this different from living in a small town of 20 years ago?
John Brown
Freeloading Social media influenza
I don't think it is all that different. I suppose the point is that with our of town shopping malls and superstores, the consolidation of healthcare facilities etc., most people don't live that way these days.
Woody2Shoes
Impressive Member
It's quite possible that methane - fugitive emissions of which are associated with all kinds of fossil fuel extraction - is playing a larger part than previously thought in creating a 'greenhouse effect'.
Woody2Shoes
Impressive Member
We have really changed the way water moves across the face of the earth - damming rivers, chopping down forests etc - I'm sure that is one of the drivers.
Woody2Shoes
Impressive Member
I don't think anyone's suggesting forcing people to live in any particular way. Gentle persuasion, through illustrating the benefits (like, for example, not needing to spend money/time on owning/driving cars etc) might be on the agenda though.
Woody2Shoes
Impressive Member
It's hard to believe that the global poulation has more than doubled in my lifetime. Yes, demographics in the post-industrial 'west' means we've got too many of the wrong sort of people in the wrong places, and too few in others. If climate change really gets going (I see that temperatures were close to 60C in Rio recently - proteins start to denature faster at those sorts of temperature) the current levels of (primarily economic, however it's dressed up) migratation will get significantly greater.
Woody2Shoes
Impressive Member
It is pretty much incontrovertible that 50% (near as dammit) of the population has an IQ of less than 100. If 70% of the electorate turns out to vote - giving "an opinion" at some level or other....
Woody2Shoes
Impressive Member
I think there's different 'flavours' of capitalism - "slash'n'burn, devil-take-the-hindmost" vs. a more enlightened and fairer equivalent.
Woody2Shoes
Impressive Member
This suburbanisation - enabled by mass car ownership, refrigeration etc. etc. - is something that started in the USA post-war and has spread across the globe now e.g. UK, Australia etc. etc. Prior to that, the most practical (and eco-friendly, in terms of use of land and other resources) way for people to live was in towns and cities. There's no reason why the pendulum couldn't/shouldn't start to swing the other way.
So far, there seems to be within the media a lot of back slapping and heart felt delight in the success of Space X to both launch larger and larger payloads as well as the frequency of flights. After all, the launching of satellites provides huge economic benefits as well as educational, humanitarian and all number of other benefits. BUT, the extimates are that last year it contributed 3% of all global warming last year and is going to keep growing exponentially. Although Methaox burns very cleanly and produces CO2, water and a bit of NO, the soot it leaves behind is the main culprit. Now 3% is a big number when that’s considered against Global warming…..no mention of CO2, it’s the soot.
So, is anyone sticking their hand up to say we should launching rockets? Perhaps Elon should look at say solar cells or wind energy and a few batteries to power his rockets?
So, is anyone sticking their hand up to say we should launching rockets? Perhaps Elon should look at say solar cells or wind energy and a few batteries to power his rockets?
John Brown
Freeloading Social media influenza
Are solar or wind powered rockets a viable alternative? I'd say no. Are there alternatives to ICE cars and gas boilers? Yes, although they come with some of their own problems. So you're really presenting a false dichotomy situation, wherein we only have two options, stop everything that might accelerate climate change, or do nothing.
Terry - Somerset
Established Member
Suburbanisation happened largely due to mass car ownership changing behaviours:
- greater car ownership reduced the economic case for decent public transport
- traditional town and city centres could not cope with traffic or parking
- out of town centre shopping malls and retail development allowed easy access
- economic advantage made a case for larger centralised services - healthcare, education etc
- commuting became feasible where previously reliant on public transport
- social and family relationships were no longer constrained by adjacency
I am not convinced that this will be easy or quick to reverse - the genie is well and truly out of the bottle. It may require major changes to - eg:
- planning and zoning to promote diversity of use rather than a silo mentality
- paying more than lip service to environment impacts instead of mainly financial outcomes
- dis-incentivising out of town with business rates and car parking charges
- increasing carbon/fuel taxation, reduce costs of house moves to reduce commuting
- smaller schools - teachers travel rather than the whole class
- smaller hospitals replacing monolithic regional hubs
- initially large subsidies for much better public transport.
Jacob
New Luddism. Wake up and resist.
Where did you get the 3% figure from? It seems unlikely.
Yes space launches are incredibly CO2 generating, and soot, but they are relatively infrequent - a few hundred per annum as compared to e.g. air travel with many thousands of trips.
Yorkieguy
Established Member
I've just read the book 'There is no Climate Crisis'.
Just about very page provides historical scientific factual evidence, of climate variations over thousands of years - long before industrial development, population growth, oil based economies and so on. What was initially referred to as 'climate change' is invariably called 'climate 'crisis'.
It's a mistake to say - as people so often do - that 'all scientists agree' etc, because any who don't agree are branded 'climate deniers', 'flat earthers' and any scientist who provides evidence-based alternative perspectives will not be published in scientific journals which are wedded to the view that there is not simply 'climate change' but an existential threat to the planet which has been created by humans and can be solved by human intervention.
Anyone wedded to that view will not entertain any other, and any debate will - as this one is doing - generate more heat than light.
"THERE IS NO CLIMATE CRISIS":
What if there is no climate crisis? What if the Earth isn't overheating? What if sea levels aren't rising? What if the polar ice caps aren't melting? What if the polar bears are thriving? What if there is no need to reduce CO2 emissions as they have little to no effect on our planet's climate?
Using 150 years of newspaper reports, temperature charts which have been doctored or even deleted, CIA documents and letters to U.S. presidents, THERE IS NO CLIMATE CRISIS reveals that, in a futile attempt to fight the non-existent threat of man-made global warming or climate change or climate emergency or climate crisis or whatever it's called this month, we are about to commit the most expensive and disastrous scientific blunder in human history.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/THERE-CLIMATE-CRISIS-David-Craig/dp/1872188176
And this:
While the Climate Always Has and Always Will Change, There Is no Climate Crisis
And this:
The Death of Science: The retreat from reason in the post-modern world
'SCIENCE IS ON ITS DEATH BED':
Lies, specious argument and fraud abound in a variety of scientific endeavours including the treatment and vaccines for Covid-19. Managers and politicians have taken over where previously the scientists were in charge. They have been able to utilise the bizarre language and contradictory processes of political correctness, making themselves into the high priests of a new religion, one which spawns more politically correct managers and despises experts, but there is hope and possible answers are proposed.
Remember the Covid-19 mantra: "We're following the science".? If those who foisted that onto us really and truly believed what they would have us believe, (and enforced that view with criminal penalties), they'd have behaved in quite a different way to that which they did:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Death-Scie...a8-97db-0bf1bb43c732&pd_rd_i=1854571133&psc=1
Nothing will change.
Just about very page provides historical scientific factual evidence, of climate variations over thousands of years - long before industrial development, population growth, oil based economies and so on. What was initially referred to as 'climate change' is invariably called 'climate 'crisis'.
It's a mistake to say - as people so often do - that 'all scientists agree' etc, because any who don't agree are branded 'climate deniers', 'flat earthers' and any scientist who provides evidence-based alternative perspectives will not be published in scientific journals which are wedded to the view that there is not simply 'climate change' but an existential threat to the planet which has been created by humans and can be solved by human intervention.
Anyone wedded to that view will not entertain any other, and any debate will - as this one is doing - generate more heat than light.
"THERE IS NO CLIMATE CRISIS":
What if there is no climate crisis? What if the Earth isn't overheating? What if sea levels aren't rising? What if the polar ice caps aren't melting? What if the polar bears are thriving? What if there is no need to reduce CO2 emissions as they have little to no effect on our planet's climate?
Using 150 years of newspaper reports, temperature charts which have been doctored or even deleted, CIA documents and letters to U.S. presidents, THERE IS NO CLIMATE CRISIS reveals that, in a futile attempt to fight the non-existent threat of man-made global warming or climate change or climate emergency or climate crisis or whatever it's called this month, we are about to commit the most expensive and disastrous scientific blunder in human history.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/THERE-CLIMATE-CRISIS-David-Craig/dp/1872188176
And this:
While the Climate Always Has and Always Will Change, There Is no Climate Crisis
- September 2022
- Journal of Sustainable Development 15(5):116
And this:
The Death of Science: The retreat from reason in the post-modern world
'SCIENCE IS ON ITS DEATH BED':
Lies, specious argument and fraud abound in a variety of scientific endeavours including the treatment and vaccines for Covid-19. Managers and politicians have taken over where previously the scientists were in charge. They have been able to utilise the bizarre language and contradictory processes of political correctness, making themselves into the high priests of a new religion, one which spawns more politically correct managers and despises experts, but there is hope and possible answers are proposed.
Remember the Covid-19 mantra: "We're following the science".? If those who foisted that onto us really and truly believed what they would have us believe, (and enforced that view with criminal penalties), they'd have behaved in quite a different way to that which they did:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Death-Scie...a8-97db-0bf1bb43c732&pd_rd_i=1854571133&psc=1
Nothing will change.
Attachments
Jacob
New Luddism. Wake up and resist.
I'd drop that book in the bin if I were you! It's doin' yer 'ed in!
Have you read any other books on the topic? Maybe you should.
PS how do you account for the fact that climate change seems to happening now, more or less as forecast by the science?
https://royalsociety.org/news-resou...nge-evidence-causes/basics-of-climate-change/
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DrPhill
Cyber Heretic
https://www.politifact.com/factchec...09-scientists-sign-a-declaration-saying-ther/
Only 10 of the signatories described themselves as climatologists or climate scientists, Agence France-Presse found.
About 200 signatories were engineers. Other professionals were mathematicians, medical doctors and agricultural scientists. Six signatories were deceased.
Only 10 of the signatories described themselves as climatologists or climate scientists, Agence France-Presse found.
About 200 signatories were engineers. Other professionals were mathematicians, medical doctors and agricultural scientists. Six signatories were deceased.
