Workbench Advice

[J_SAMa]

Hi all,
After weeks of procrastination, I'm finally starting to design and build my first workbench. It will be a European style one, with an apron, fitted with a front vise and "L" tail vise. I'm posting this here because I've basically only hand tools to work with (and a circular saw for initial preparation maybe), so please take that into consideration.

First of all, long trestle vs. wide apron?
In most European benches I've seen or read about, there are both short trestles that connect the legs along the width and long trestles that run along the length (all of them mortised and tenoned). But it Paul Sellers' design, he simply uses an (very wide) apron attached to the legs by wedges and dadoes to prevent lateral tension from taking place, as shown in this video 11:05:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyDjZWo3b3U

Well, I understand that a wide apron with dadoes and wedges would tolerate more inaccuracy than M&T'd long trestles do. But would I be compromising much strength and stability by using this design?

And how do I connect the top to the frame?
Again, taking Paul Sellers' design as an example. He simply glues the top on the bearers and aprons, without any joints. I can't see a problem in this but a top glued on with no joint makes me feel inadequate...

I haven't decided on the species of the wood I'm going to use either. So make suggestions if you want to .

Thanks
Sam
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26/03/2013 Update:

I just made a sketchup model based on Paul Seller's design. I made the following two modifications:
The front apron is not full length, it doesn't cover the furthest 360mm of top on the left side so it's easier for me to fit a vise (I can make the back jaw liner so that it sits flush with the apron).
The stretchers were moved outwards to sit flush with the legs so that there is enough space for me to screw a bolt through the bearer into the top.

Link to the model:
http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/ ... d&result=4

 

[J_SAMa]

Anyone? please? could really use some help now :?

 

[GazPal]

Hi Sam,

Paul's design is a proven one and a very good one too. His use of wedges is simply a method of making the bench easy to strip down and is one step you can happily leave out, as long as you still bolt the leg frames to the front and back aprons and coach screw the frames to the underside of the work top. It's the method Paul uses and it's perfectly fit for purpose.

In total you'll have eight mortise and tenon joints to make (Four per leg frame) and four housing joints to make (Two per apron) to accept the leg frames, plus chop to match the fixing method suited to the face vise you use. Everything else is either glued (Laminated top) or screwed (Leg frames to front and rear aprons - 2 coach bolts per leg - and underside of top - four coach screws per leg frame) into place. Tail vise fixing method to match the style and size you finalise into your design.

There's nothing wrong in using top and bottom stretchers in replacement of both front and rear aprons and you can step the front top stretcher back from the front edge of your bench for the sake of dog hole and end vise clearance. Simply mortise the front top stretcher into your end frame top stretchers instead of into the legs. The bottom stretcher can remain further forward and remain mortised into the front legs.

What size will you be building your bench and will it be kept against a wall or free standing in the middle of your working area?

If you have Sketchup I could work out a design and email it if you're in need of a few ideas or more clarification.

 

[Jelly]

I've seen several of Paul's benches in the flesh* and they're more than strong enough to cope with the forces applied by anything you'd expect whilst doing "normal" joinery...
If you expect to be doing a lot of work with very large timbers, or otherwise applying a large loads it certainly couldn't hurt to have trestles at the bottom as well as aprons, but you'd have to be doing something exceptionally forceful to make one of those benches deform or fail laterally.

*I've never been on a course with him, but we live in the same village and he was kind enough to invite me over to his workshop and spare some time to give me some advice on his experience of the nature of the fine furniture business whilst I was considering options for my future.

 

[Jacob]

...
In total you'll have eight mortise and tenon joints to make (Four per leg frame) and four housing joints to make (Two per apron) to accept the leg frames, plus chop to match the fixing method suited to the face vise you use. Everything else is either glued (Laminated top) or screwed (Leg frames to front and rear aprons - 2 coach bolts per leg - and underside of top - four coach screws per leg frame) into place. T......

That's it - for my bench and a million others.
12 components; 4 legs, 4 rails, 2 aprons, 2 top beams. Plus a bit of board for the well.
You could omit one beam to make it a one sided bench with the apron raised to the same level as the front beam. This is quite common pattern.
I'd get the basic bench built first before bothering with a tail vice. Then you will probably then find you don't need one anyway.

 

[J_SAMa]

Hi Sam,

Paul's design is a proven one and a very good one too. His use of wedges is simply a method of making the bench easy to strip down and is one step you can happily leave out, as long as you still bolt the leg frames to the front and back aprons and coach screw the frames to the underside of the work top. It's the method Paul uses and it's perfectly fit for purpose.

Hi Gary,

Am I understanding what your post incorrectly or are you saying that simply bolting the aprons to the frames will work? I remember reading on the Schwarz's blog that bolts and screws will never work quite well for workbenches...
If I were to build it with the wedges, would it help if I glued them? I know it would make the wedges rather pointless, but that's better than bolts alonge right?

There's nothing wrong in using top and bottom stretchers in replacement of both front and rear aprons and you can step the front top stretcher back from the front edge of your bench for the sake of dog hole and end vise clearance. Simply mortise the front top stretcher into your end frame top stretchers instead of into the legs. The bottom stretcher can remain further forward and remain mortised into the front legs.

What size will you be building your bench and will it be kept against a wall or free standing in the middle of your working area?

If you have Sketchup I could work out a design and email it if you're in need of a few ideas or more clarification.

I'm thinking about 2100 mm by 600 mm, placed against a wall. And speaking of fixtures, do you think it is practical for me to drill horizontal holes might help. for holdfasts and dogs in the front apron? I obviously can't fit a deadman in there because of the aprons and thought horizontal h I know this seems a bit too early to ask as I've not even close to starting to build it but I'd want to ask it before I forget.

Another thing is the "feet". By it I'm referring to these:

The bench doesn't stand on the legs but stand on the "feet" that run across the legs (what are those called anyways?). Are those beneficial? Do they give you extra grip or something?

I just downloaded Sketchup and fiddled around with it for the last few hours. I'll base my design on Paul Sellers and hopefully have it drawn in a few days

Thanks
Sam

 

[Jelly]

I remember reading on the Schwarz's blog that bolts and screws will never work quite well for workbenches...

I would question that... so long as the mechanical interface at the joint is good (that is you have a tight fit), then compressing it with a bolt should be more than sufficient, If bolted and screwed construction can keep large timber framed buildings standing, why not a workbench?

One of my benches is made with nothing but butt-joints, the trick is that everything was cut precisely square, cramped up and secured using nailplates, just like a trussed rafter assembly!

Also, When you asked about materials... The recieved wisdom is to make it all out of a tough hardwood, something like beech, but personally I think that's a waste of money. If I was you I'd build the majority of the bench out of structural softwood (redwood or whitewood whichever you can obtain cheaper) and just face the benchtop itself with about an inch of the toughest, most impact resistant hardwood you can lay your hands on (Keruing is good, and relatively cheap)...

 

[carlb40]

My base for my present bench is similar to that one. Except i also have top rails on the sides. I just used 2 bolts through each of the rails to hold the bench top in place. After 8yrs + i have had nothing work lose etc.

The feet aid stability, so it doesn't tip forward/ backward. It is unlikely so probably more a design feature now

 

[Muswell]

My bench has top and bottom rails on the end frames, The lower rail is raised off the floor so I can clean underneath. Four separate legs make it easier to sit on uneven floors. The lower rail has a through mortice with featured joints and the top rail projects front and back from saddle joints. The frames are connected by a deep bottom rail with wedged through tenons, which project 20mm, and the top which is fixed to the top rails with one bolt per frame. It can be taken apart in 5min.

The top and legs are 4" maple. The top is 400mm wide then 200mm of removable ply panels then another 100mm of maple. There is no apron, I couldn't see the point of this and thought it was better for that wood to go into making the top thicker. The panels are good to allow clamping from the back and I'm very pleased I did this. I don't like the tool tray design because it just collects stuff.

This bench is so solid it desn't move at all, and there is no bounce when chiselling it's the floor that bounces. Bomb- proof is the word.

I would be cautious about making a top of hardwood over softwood because they will move differently as they season and then as humidity changes from day to day. That might mean that the top is always going out of true. Maybe I'm just a pessimist. I guess it all depends on how you will use the bench but I use mine as a reference surface and it does stay flat.

I have a Paramo quick-release vice on the front and another on the end with maple on the jaws. My only regret is making bench dogs. If I did it again I would use the Veritas dogs. I keep meaning to make something to support the end of long boards when planing. This would be moveable rather than being holes in a leg, which limits its use. For now, 8 years later I still just clamp a vertical board to the workpiece.

I hope this is helpful.

 

[Jacob]

The main thing is to de-mystify it.
The fact is the very simple, common, Brit style bench, redwood (or even whitewood) as per Paul Sellers version is perfectly good for anybody.
Anything else is a luxury and given a good basic bench to start with you might find more interesting things to make rather than another 'fantasy' bench.

 

[Col]

I have only just started using hand tools properly ( having done quite a bit of rough DIY round the house for years). A bench was my first real project which was built earlier this year. I bought the updated Christopher Schwartz's book 'the workbench design book' which shows you how to build a number of different workbenches and then goes through the pros and cons of each design.

I based mine on the Roubo example but all in softwood. The legs and short rails are mortice/tenoned and then glued but the long rails are just drawbored (so I could distantle to move if needed). The top (two lengths of 6"by 3" with a removal length of 4"by3&1/2" which flips as a planing stop)) has through tenons from the legs and is bolted to the upper short rails.

The Record vices (from car boots) are a 52 1/2 on the front and a 52 on the end. There is also an adjustable planing stop at the opposite end of the bench to the tail (one of the upgrades suggested in Schwartz's book). So far it's working - though I haven't yet drilled any dog holes - waiting to see where I will find them most useful rather than drilling row on row of them.

 

[Muswell]

That looks very similar to mine. Nice and simple. I didn't put in a shelf below because it would collect dust. I have a couple of loose battens which go between the front and back rails and on which I keep my bench hook and dusting brush.

I built my bench at a height to suit planing but I also do detail work for which this is not good so I have 1000 x 600 sheet of MDF on bearers which I clamp to the bench and raise the level by 150mm. No apron makes clamping to the bench easy.

 

[Col]

I didn't put in a shelf below because it would collect dust.

... No apron makes clamping to the bench easy.

I left the ends of the shelf open so that they are easy to clean!

Should have mentioned the advantages of not having an apron - thanks for pointing that out.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Col - Some people swear by aprons, I've never really seen the need although when I make another bench, I'm tempted to put an apron on one side only and have the best of both worlds. The lack of them makes clamping easier, although that is probably less important when using holdfasts.
I spaced the holes on mine so that I could bolt my bench drill near the vice using the same ones - I can swing the drill out over something held in the vice.

 

[Col]

Col - Some people swear by aprons, I've never really seen the need although when I make another bench, I'm tempted to put an apron on one side only and have the best of both worlds. The lack of them makes clamping easier, although that is probably less important when using holdfasts.
I spaced the holes on mine so that I could bolt my bench drill near the vice using the same ones - I can swing the drill out over something held in the vice.

Phil - good thing that the aprons debate isn't as emotional as the sharpening debate
I have an old Progress bench drill - would love to be able to reposition it and swing over stock in the vice but it weighs it at over a 110kg so I don't move it much

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Mine's a Meddings - it's not that much lighter! I wouldn't wish to move it regularly.

 

[Muswell]

I used a holdfast on my first bench and it was often in the wrong place...hence my choice of no apron, a narrow bench and a couple of long reach F clamps instead of a holdfast on this bench.

 

[Eric The Viking]

I've two collets for my holdfasts: BOTH are in the wrong place!

But... I have a rebuild of the top due soon (I'm keeping the frame as it bolts nicely together and doesn't shift), so I know how to reposition them now. And I've four collets altogether (three sets of holdfasts plus an extra collet), so I intend to fit one on the left leg or the left hand end of the apron (I'm left handed).

Bolts are dead handy if you have to move house, incidentally, although the removers weren't impressed by having to shift the top!

 

[Muswell]

Yes I hired removers to help reorganise our house to make space for our incoming grandson. I offered to remove the 10.5" vices but they told scornfully told me that wasn't necessary. As they staggered down the stairs with veins popping I think they regretted that.

 

[Jacob]

Col - Some people swear by aprons, I've never really seen the need although .....

The main advantage of aprons is that they are the easiest way to stiffen up the whole structure - effectively bracing the legs and also adding support under the front edge of the top beam.
What you lose in top clamping you gain in side clamping. Stuff stays on top anyway, so rarely needs clamping, but things fall off the side - so G clamps or dog holes in the apron are really useful.
The 'english' bench is also far and away the easiest to make. It's a bit boring to look at - less glamourous than the continental types but very functional non the less.