Sharpening A2 Steel without a grinder

[E-wan]

Trying to sort a tool sharpening set up, most of my tools are older softer steal but I have a couple with A2 Steel such as a small low angle block plane.

Don't have much space for a grinder and wondered what methods there are for sharpening A2 without one

Thanks

Ewan

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[custard]

It's not just about the steel type, it's also about it's thickness.

On the left is a Veritas iron that's designed as a drop-in replacement for standard Bailey style planes, it's 2.5mm thick. On the right is a standard Record iron at 2.1mm thick,

Here's that same 2.5mm Veritas iron, but shown against a Lie Nielsen iron at 3.6mm thick,

Personally I don't think the LN iron is viable without some kind of power grinder, where as you can certainly maintain the Record iron, and just about maintain the Veritas iron, using normal stones.

It's up to you to decide how much time (and wear and tear on your fingers!) you're willing to invest in sharpening. As soon as it takes more than about ten or twelve strokes to raise a burr then I grind off a bit of metal at 25 degrees to get back to well under ten strokes.

With a Record iron, even when the secondary bevel runs the full thickness of the iron, it's still only taking about 20-30 strokes on a 600 grit diamond stone to raise a bevel, so not too bad. I've never let the LN irons get that far between grinds, but I bet you'd be pushing a hundred strokes or more to raise a burr.

Your fingers, your time, so your choice. Given I'm sharpening tools several times every day, a hundred plus strokes just to raise a burr is a non starter.

 

[custard]

Incidentally, for the sake of completeness, here's a 2.1mm Record iron shown alongside a massive 4.5mm thick Norris iron,

The Norris could be maintained on normal stones without power grinding, but that's only because the really hard steel on the face is just a thin layer laminated to a thick piece of much softer steel on the back. In reality I suspect most Norris irons would have been used in a workshop rather than out on a site, so they'd most likely still have had access to a grindstone, even if it was just a hand cranked version.

 

[E-wan]

Thanks custard very informative

My a2 irons aren't that thick so I think I shall try with a large diamond stone to start.

Thanks

Ewan

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[Ttrees]

You'll find somewhere for a grinder surely ...
I find I'm getting nowhere sometimes honing, and I'd hate to have to go at the grinding
with a stone/hone by hand after spending a bit of time working on the secondary bevel
That would be just annoying, tiring and dirty, and I would have to go into the house to wash my hands before going at it again.

Another reason for a grinder would be utilizing the blunt chisel technique ...
Look up Bill Carter on the tube

 

[ED65]

Ewan, in case you don't know there are a wide range of diamond plates available from some eBay sellers and from AliExpress down to really coarse grits suitable for hand grinding and they only cost a fraction of the price of most name-brand plates. Some are under a fiver and despite this the quality seems fine.

Another option is coarse Crystolon from Norton, which is P120 equivalent and about the most aggressive stone out there.

Are you having trouble with your honing angle creeping upwards and that's why you need to re-establish your primary bevels? This isn't a huge deal on a bevel-down plane but obviously you need to keep on top of it for the block plane.

 

[ED65]

That would be just annoying, tiring and dirty, and I would have to go into the house to wash my hands before going at it again.

Wear nitrile gloves and you can wipe them clean with white spirit, or go bare and use wet wipes, problem solved.

 

[custard]

Thanks custard very informative

My a2 irons aren't that thick so I think I shall try with a large diamond stone to start.

If it's just one iron, and you're an occasional user, then you'll be fine. Incidentally, don't hesitate to use a honing jig, especially for tedious grinding sessions. If you can sharpen without then great, but unless you've done a fair few hours at the bench you'll likely be much quicker and more accurate with a simple honing jig than working freehand. It doesn't make you any less of a craftsman; it just makes you smart and efficient.

For anyone in the South Hampshire area finding themselves in a similar position, PM me and you're welcome to drop by the workshop and we'll use a linisher to grind a 25 degree primary bevel on your thick A2 iron in under a minute.

 

[Ttrees]

That would be just annoying, tiring and dirty, and I would have to go into the house to wash my hands before going at it again.

Wear nitrile gloves and you can wipe them clean with white spirit, or go bare and use wet wipes, problem solved.

I wouldn't want to have to bother with gloves either...
It took me about 4 minutes this morning, to grind back the primary bevel close to the edge
on a chisel.
I have a fairly efficient setup... an 8" grinder, granted its just got the (still full sized) bog standard wheels... and a fancy tool rest(shopmade wolverine jig) at the rougher wheel, set up specifically for the primary bevel and nothing else.
and yet I still put it off...reason today was listening to some of Anthony Murphy's tales

I suppose I might get used to having a look at everything before starting, sometimes.... and grind a few tools in the one go and rotate the tools as they heat up a bit.

I'd say it would easily take four times as long to use the 400 grit DMD stone I have ...
DMD = The cheap ones for about 2 quid somethin
Before I got the grinder I used a belt sander, and it was a breath of fresh air to not have to do so anymore.
I have never ground A2 steel by the way, but lapped an 601/2 plane, Its hard stuff!
Tom

 

[ED65]

I suppose I might get used to having a look at everything before starting, sometimes.... and grind a few tools in the one go and rotate the tools as they heat up a bit.

Are you regrinding primaries routinely? I never grind new purchases, I just ignore the coarse factory finish on the primary and go straight to honing, and on stuff I've sharpened previously I will generally only grind again to repair a chip. I've occasionally redone the primary to a shallower angle than I'd done it the first time, although I sometimes do that by hand to check the time it takes.

I'd say it would easily take four times as long to use the 400 grit DMD stone I have ...

Oh yeah that's waaay too fine for that job. 400 is finer than the orange side of a Norton combination stone!

 

[custard]

I have never ground A2 steel by the way

Neither's Ed.

But here on the internet when has actual experience of what you're talking about ever been a requirement?

 

[Ttrees]

I suppose I might get used to having a look at everything before starting, sometimes.... and grind a few tools in the one go and rotate the tools as they heat up a bit.

Are you regrinding primaries routinely? I never grind new purchases, I just ignore the coarse factory finish on the primary and go straight to honing, and on stuff I've sharpened previously I will generally only grind again to repair a chip. I've occasionally redone the primary to a shallower angle than I'd done it the first time, although I sometimes do that by hand to check the time it takes.

I'd say it would easily take four times as long to use the 400 grit DMD stone I have ...

Oh yeah that's waaay too fine for that job. 400 is finer than the orange side of a Norton combination stone!

I should have been more specific, I meant get in the habit of inspection before starting for the day, I regrind the primary bevels probably every ten times, but I dont count the honings, so it could be more, could be less?

I wonder how much a suitable stone for hand grinding would cost?
Say I didn't have the belt sander...I could get a good few feet of 80 grit or rougher sandpaper and lay it on the bench,
but that would mean there would be loose grit on the bench.
Not for me #-o

I have yet to see a real world example of grinding by hand, on a chisel with a good sized secondary bevel.

I've found, as I'm honing freehand on my washita, and my 1800 fancy diamond hone (really really dulled to effectly be a much more refined hone gives a mirror polish now"don't ask me how its got to this stage" ) even with a fresh ground primary, I will do the following....
I start on the bevel on the washita, feel for the burr catching with a handful of shavings, but not pull the oil, nor the burr off...
flip iron, and either pull off or bend the burr to the bevel side with the fine diamond....
Back on the washita working the bevel again, no more than a few seconds, flip to the back side on the diamond...
Flip again to the bevel side, but on the diamond this time, then the back and bevel till its leaving a slicing sort of scratch pattern...

I have been trying to get used to the Klausz method of flipping every stroke efficiently, especially when the secondary grows.
As well as omiting flipping onto the back, after the second go on the washita, with not much sucess.

And yes I can get hair popping sharpness with a fresh ground bevel in a quarter of the time, or less, but the edge dulls instantly.
Tom

 

[ED65]

... I regrind the primary bevels probably every ten times, but I dont count the honings, so it could be more, could be less?

One smooth continuous bevel and you'll not need to do that routinely, possibly ever in the case of thinner plane irons.

I wonder how much a suitable stone for hand grinding would cost?

I wouldn't use a stone myself it would be a diamond plate, so, under a fiver.

But if a stone is preferred Crystolon is a good choice. They're cheap enough in the US, under 20 dollars practically everywhere I think, not sure what they might end up costing over here. There are plenty of other SiC stones though, but you want to pick one that's coarse enough to be efficient (<150 grit) and with the right bond so it doesn't wear down excessively quickly.

Good belt-sander material is another viable option because it's so tough. I know you don't like the idea of the loose grit getting on your bench, I have a piece of 18mm plywood I keep as a 'dirty board' for metalworking jobs and something like that can keep all of the grit and fillings from getting on the bench.

I have yet to see a real world example of grinding by hand, on a chisel with a good sized secondary bevel.

Well I reground this just the other day. It's 4.6mm thick.

I bet there are a lot of people who do this some or all of the time but just don't post online. Brent Beach (he of the world's best honing jig) only grinds by hand and the times he's posted compare favourably with those using power grinding and even belt linishers.

FWIW the honing routine you describe sounds perfectly reasonable to me. I'd usually end up with single strokes bevel and back, but essentially I do it the same most of the time. I used to always strop to finish off, but don't always find it necessary any more.

 

[Ttrees]

Thanks ED65, I thought the 400 grit diamond hones were the roughest you could get, without spending a fortune on fancy ones, I must have a look again
Tom

 

[Jacob]

freehand grinding much faster if you slot the blade into a saw kerf in the end into a piece of 2x1" to use as a handle, say 12" long. You can get both hands on it and plenty of downward pressure.
Easier if you forget "primary, secondary" bevels and just go for slightly rounded, with the edge at 30".

 

[ED65]

You can definitely get 80#, many of the suppliers online who do the unbranded plates offer the full range from 80 to 3k.

I think you can even get 60 from some suppliers but that's likely going too far.

 

[ED65]

Jesus did the world just tilt on its axis?? Jacob just recommended a jig. For sharpening.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Jacob]

No a jig is a daft gadget for people who can't guess what 30º looks like.
You'd have to use hand and eye skills with my "handle" thing, which will put a lot of nervous people right off! :lol:

 

[ED65]

Still a jig, for use in sharpening. I shall hold it up as an example forevermore! :mrgreen: