Wrist watch question

[Rajiv]

With you there. For work i have a resin radio G Shock, pretty much indestructible, still in good nick after 20 years. For everything else a mechanical one every time. I have about 60 so most difficult decision is often which one to pick!

G-Shock’s are great watches. The original square G-Shock was a great watch. I like the atomic clock sync feature.

 

[Rajiv]

Wouldn't be without my G-Shock. Accurate to 1 second (updates itself every day from the atomic clock), solar powered, world clock, stopwatch, 4 alarms, built like the proverbial brick outhouse. Never take it off.

Definitely a great watch.

 

[Rajiv]

I worked in watch retailing for 45 years, it was my experience that any manufacturing faults showed up within 31 days, once all the wheels had had a rotation, after that it was usually "external influence" The question is "Should the watch have been able to withstand that external influence?"

The ‘dings’ on the watch happened within a few months of owning it. The watch worked fine. The ‘dings’ never bothered me. Things wear and things happen—you cannot use something and constantly be concerned about keeping it pristine. Things are meant to be used. The issue with the date mechanism only happened a few months ago and there have not been any hard knocks to the watch. The ‘dings’ were caused by my wrist brushing some metal shelving. I’ve got another watch—Garmin—that I wear on the other wrist and that goes through the same usage. It’s in much better condition externally than the MeisterSinger. It’s a bigger watch too and you would think it would have more scuffs etc.

I think for the money I paid the MeisterSinger should have been able to withstand normal day to day useage.

 

[Fergie 307]

Wouldn't be without my G-Shock. Accurate to 1 second (updates itself every day from the atomic clock), solar powered, world clock, stopwatch, 4 alarms, built like the proverbial brick outhouse. Never take it off.

The time update from the atomic clock is very good. I use the watch and a clock with the same function to monitor the timekeeping of all the mechanical clocks and watches that I rebuild. In over twenty years I think the G shock is on its second battery, it has a solar charging function to extend battery life, and the strap split last year so had to be replaced. Genuine strap still available from Casio for something like 20 quid. The resin body and stainless trim still look like new, which is remarkable considering what it has been through. And it lights up at night at the touch of a button, what's not to like

 

[Fergie 307]

The ‘dings’ on the watch happened within a few months of owning it. The watch worked fine. The ‘dings’ never bothered me. Things wear and things happen—you cannot use something and constantly be concerned about keeping it pristine. Things are meant to be used. The issue with the date mechanism only happened a few months ago and there have not been any hard knocks to the watch. The ‘dings’ were caused by my wrist brushing some metal shelving. I’ve got another watch—Garmin—that I wear on the other wrist and that goes through the same usage. It’s in much better condition externally than the MeisterSinger. It’s a bigger watch too and you would think it would have more scuffs etc.

I think for the money I paid the MeisterSinger should have been able to withstand normal day to day useage.

The problem is that what you are buying is a relatively inexpensive off the shelf Sellita movement in a designer case. You would think that as it is primarily the case and dial you are paying for they might make a rather better job of it, as it is I have little doubt both case and dial are probably made in China. I love all the blurb on their website about the founder being inspired by early one handed clocks. The only reason very early clocks only had one hand is because they hadn't yet worked out how to add a minute hand. What you have is a two hand movement with a big blank boss on the hour hand so you can't see the arbor for the minute hand that is part of the movement, and is still there ticking away out of sight, In horological terms it's a lash up. The likely problem with your watch is that the Sellita movement has a calendar complication, the date ring. They have them come up with some way of driving the inner day ring from that, and it is this non standard part of the movement that has failed.
If you want a mechanical watch you are far better to buy one from a maker who actually makes the whole watch, or at least has the common sense to leave the movement alone. Here you have a £150 movement (and that is what I can buy one for, you have to wonder what they pay if they are buying hundreds of them) stuck in a case and fitted with a dial and a nice looking strap, which probably cost between them no more than the movement, and a price tag hung on it for what, £1500? You might like the look of it, and if you are prepared to pay that much for the appearance, then hey, its your money. Just don't kid yourself it's a quality watch, or that it in any way represents value for money.

 

[davethebb]

Looking at the photo in the original post it is clear that the watch has suffered a moderate impact at around the 10 o/clock position. If you look at the "Day" indicator you can see that this has indeed moved the "Day" ring. The day ring has actually lifted at the 4 o'clock position such as the ring is on top of the adjacent ring and at 10 o'clock you can see the movement internals. This is likely to be the problem.

It is normal with failures of mechanical date mechanisms on mechanical watches to break/fail due to inexperience/misuse when changing the date or indeed manually winding - these particular mechanisms seem to be very sensitive to this as you must hold the watch still and at a specific angle when winding etc.

There is nothing wrong in having and watch movement from one supplier used in the case of someone else- in fact, 99% of watches are made in this way but in some of the more expensive watches will the movement be modified and reworked by the watchmaker themselves.

I would advise that they kindly send you the pictures the UK distributor took and also the ones the manufacturer took when they received it. Also, ask them for and scope of work of what is required to bring it back into the correct working state. This may be vital if you need to pursue the matter further and may save you the expense of having a third-party report on it. It does sound like the UK distributor is on your side which is excellent news.

Good luck.

 

[Fergie 307]

The Sellita movements used in these watches have a good reputation for robustness and reliability. It is essentially a cheaper clone of an ETA movement which is still very widely used. And here it wouldn't appear to be the movement as such which has failed. Problem here I suspect is that the day ring is a complication introduced by the maker of the watch, rather than by the manufacturer of the movement, and it would appear that they haven't made a very good job of it, so it is their addition which has failed rather than the movement itself. I agree it is commonplace for watchmakers to buy in movements, and the Sellita movements are used by numerous brands. Most however do not alter the movement in significant ways, contenting themselves with cosmetic alterations like having their name on the weight etc. Nothing intrinsically wrong with this, after all even Rolex did it with some movements being made by Zenith. However, I would still argue that the heart of any mechanical watch should be the movement, and I personally would not want to be paying £1500 or more for a watch containing a movement that probably cost the "watchmaker" well under £100. And I suspect many customers might be a little miffed if they knew how cheap the movement was. I have certainly known friends who were really quite angry to find that their £500+ designer quartz watch contained a movement costing about £15.

 

[Fergie 307]

Makes me particularly annoyed on behalf of the OP in this case. The maker could just replace the whole movement and dial in a few minutes, and at a cost that would be minimal in comparison with the profit they made in the first place. I agree there is clear damage to the bezel, but not enough I would have thought to conclusively say it is down to the OP, you would have hoped they would give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Rajiv]

The problem is that what you are buying is a relatively inexpensive off the shelf Sellita movement in a designer case. You would think that as it is primarily the case and dial you are paying for they might make a rather better job of it, as it is I have little doubt both case and dial are probably made in China. I love all the blurb on their website about the founder being inspired by early one handed clocks. The only reason very early clocks only had one hand is because they hadn't yet worked out how to add a minute hand. What you have is a two hand movement with a big blank boss on the hour hand so you can't see the arbor for the minute hand that is part of the movement, and is still there ticking away out of sight, In horological terms it's a lash up. The likely problem with your watch is that the Sellita movement has a calendar complication, the date ring. They have them come up with some way of driving the inner day ring from that, and it is this non standard part of the movement that has failed.
If you want a mechanical watch you are far better to buy one from a maker who actually makes the whole watch, or at least has the common sense to leave the movement alone. Here you have a £150 movement (and that is what I can buy one for, you have to wonder what they pay if they are buying hundreds of them) stuck in a case and fitted with a dial and a nice looking strap, which probably cost between them no more than the movement, and a price tag hung on it for what, £1500? You might like the look of it, and if you are prepared to pay that much for the appearance, then hey, its your money. Just don't kid yourself it's a quality watch, or that it in any way represents value for money.

It’s been a learning experience. I’m going to get a cheaper Citizen watch for now.

 

[Rajiv]

Looking at the photo in the original post it is clear that the watch has suffered a moderate impact at around the 10 o/clock position. If you look at the "Day" indicator you can see that this has indeed moved the "Day" ring. The day ring has actually lifted at the 4 o'clock position such as the ring is on top of the adjacent ring and at 10 o'clock you can see the movement internals. This is likely to be the problem.

It is normal with failures of mechanical date mechanisms on mechanical watches to break/fail due to inexperience/misuse when changing the date or indeed manually winding - these particular mechanisms seem to be very sensitive to this as you must hold the watch still and at a specific angle when winding etc.

There is nothing wrong in having and watch movement from one supplier used in the case of someone else- in fact, 99% of watches are made in this way but in some of the more expensive watches will the movement be modified and reworked by the watchmaker themselves.

I would advise that they kindly send you the pictures the UK distributor took and also the ones the manufacturer took when they received it. Also, ask them for and scope of work of what is required to bring it back into the correct working state. This may be vital if you need to pursue the matter further and may save you the expense of having a third-party report on it. It does sound like the UK distributor is on your side which is excellent news.

Good luck.

Thank you. Initially they were happy for me to pay for the work or pay to have it returned. It’s not until I wrote a second email based on what Richard_C said I should do—which made them respond differently. Why did they not question the manufacturers response in the first place? I completely accept that there are marks on the watch but none of them have been caused by heavy impact. I’ve probably bought a watch that is not worth the money paid for it—lesson learned

 

[Jester129]

@Fergie 307 - you sound to be quite knowledgeable in the realms of watches, so may I ask for some advice? Which watch 'producer' would you suggest, with the choices being around the Tag Heur/Brietling/Bremont/Omega ranges to name a few, are the more reputable? This insight is fascinating to learn more from.

 

[Rajiv]

@Fergie 307 - you sound to be quite knowledgeable in the realms of watches, so may I ask for some advice? Which watch 'producer' would you suggest, with the choices being around the Tag Heur/Brietling/Bremont/Omega ranges to name a few, are the more reputable? This insight is fascinating to learn more from.

That would be useful to know. Great question.

 

[deema]

If if we’re my watch, I would issue them with a 14 day letter and then if not resolved take them to the small claims court. They have to prove that you damaged it within the first 12 months of ownership, after that you have to prove you didn’t damage it after 12 months. In my experience, virtually all company’s will resolve things properly when faced with CCJ as the cost of defending it is far higher than fixing the issue, Equally the courts are usually highly empathetic towards Joe Public and it’s very hard to win if your a company unless it’s completely obvious that it’s user error. (I have when I was working faced a few spurious CCJ claims running company’s)

I’ve made about 4 CCJ claims myself only one when to court…..and I won that one…..the rest were all amicable resolved. After the 14 days letter you can easily start a CCJ on line. It costs around £140 (I think) to make the claim, BUT you get that back if you win / I always factor it into any out of court settlement if it gets that far.

https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome

 

[Fergie 307]

@Fergie 307 - you sound to be quite knowledgeable in the realms of watches, so may I ask for some advice? Which watch 'producer' would you suggest, with the choices being around the Tag Heur/Brietling/Bremont/Omega ranges to name a few, are the more reputable? This insight is fascinating to learn more from.

Well my knowlege, such as it is, is based on years of collecting mostly vintage watches, pocket watches and clocks. I strip an rebuild all myself. I am largely self taught, with some help from a lovely old watchmaker, sadly now dead, who taught me some invaluable stuff. I have over a hundred pocket watches in my collection, mainly American makers. My favourites are probably the duplex dollar watches made by Waterbury. You can often get non working ones for stupid money as few watchmaker now have a clue how to work on a duplex, none having been made for over a hundred years. As for wristwatches, love the Seiko 5, not sure how many I have, too many! Also their contemporary Citizen 7. Recently had a pretty steep learning curve working out how to repair a 1950's Hamilton electric watch, that was fun!
I would say without doubt Omega of the brands you mention. Like for like better watches than Rolex for example, and cheaper. Rolex are good watches make no mistake, but vastly overpriced owing to the hype around them. Omega are, in my opinion anyway, one of the best of the as it were second tier makers. I have to confess bias as I have a Speedmaster, one of my favourites, much nicer than a sub, and a much better watch. The top tier are the so called "holy trinity" Patek Phiilipe, Audemars Piguet and Vacheron Constantin. If you have £40k+ to spend on a watch
Of course at the end of the day it depends whether they make a watch you like. But you have the assurance that your watch will hold its value well compared to the designer brands. Not a fan of Brietling, bit too bling for my taste. Tag make some nice watches but really not in the same class as Omega. I have to say I do rather like the Bremont watches. They always used to use heavily reworked top grade ETA based movements, and I believe still do in many of their watches, these are very good, Certainly an example of the best of watchmaking with out sourced movements. The few I have seen and handled were beautifully made and finished. They have recently developed their own in house movement, a big and brave move, so I would certainly consider them as a brand that is definitely on the rise, and British too!

 

[Fergie 307]

I should probably add that I am quite fond of quirky watches, but you don't have to spend a lot of money. As an example I recently saw a Nixon in a shop on holiday. Big chunky thing that quite appealed to me as it had the crown and date at 9 o'clock, which is a bit weird. List price €450! Not paying that for a quartz watch. When we got home I had a search and managed to get one as a non runner on e bay for £70. New movement cost £12 and took ten minutes to fit. I also have a lot of cartoon watches, loony tunes and Disney. Some, like a CCCP era Donald duck Pobeda, are quite rare. Others quite common, but all good fun.

 

[Fergie 307]

It’s been a learning experience. I’m going to get a cheaper Citizen watch for now.

I have an eco drive, very nice and good value for I think just over £100 when I bought it. Only thing is you do need to keep it charged up. No problem if you wear it every day, but if you leave it for any length of time then a good idea to get it out and leave it in the light for a few hours once in a while. It will let you know if it's getting low as the second hand will jump forward several seconds at a time. Mine lives in the window of my study when I'm not wearing it, not in direct sunlight but enough to keep it topped up.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I can't get used to the notion that people take watches off.

 

[selectortone]

As for wristwatches, love the Seiko 5

My son has a Grand Seiko which was left to him by my Dad. He bought it in Singapore when we were stationed at RAF Changi in the late 60s. It was in need of a service and my son managed to find a watchmaker who got it back to good running order.

It's a lovely watch and was my Dad's pride and joy, as indeed it is my son's. Dad was an air traffic control officer and ex-pilot, and having an accurate timepiece was an obsession with him. Outside of something unaffordable from Switzerland the Grand Seiko was about as good as you could get back then. He would have loved my G-Shock.

 

[Fergie 307]

My son has a Grand Seiko which was left to him by my Dad. He bought it in Singapore when we were stationed at RAF Changi in the late 60s. It was in need of a service and my son managed to find a watchmaker who got it back to good running order.

It's a lovely watch and was my Dad's pride and joy, as indeed it is my son's. Dad was an air traffic control officer and ex-pilot, and having an accurate timepiece was an obsession with him. Outside of something unaffordable from Switzerland the Grand Seiko was about as good as you could get back then. He would have loved my G-Shock.

Grand Seiko are still one of, some would argue THE, finest mechanical watches bar none in terms of accuracy, and beautifully made. The Swiss amusingly changed the rules for some of their categories to Swiss makers only as they were fed up of these pesky oriental upstarts wiping the floor with them in terms of accuracy

 

[Fergie 307]

You should probably get it valued, if you haven't already. As a very early one it's probably worth a tidy sum, not that that matters to you of course, but good to know all the same, he's a very lucky boy!