Work experience / Helper

[YorkshireMartin]

Who said employing people was difficult or painted a bleak picture of the process?

I read it as everyone being very supportive?

 

[doctor Bob]

Who said employing people was difficult or painted a bleak picture of the process?

I read it as everyone being very supportive?

I think even considering this is a noble thing all told.

Sadly, running a business these days is nothing but miles and miles of red tape, tied up in miles more. It's expensive. It makes it very hard for smaller companies to compete, and a one man band with a single apprentice even more so.



It sounds daunting and it is. But, it can be done, just not quickly or cheaply.

I read it as you did, must just be reading this the wrong way. I certainly don't feel bogged down in miles and miles of red tape. There is a bit to do but it's all fairly easy and common sense, PAYE, pensions, HSE it's not complicated.

 

[BearTricks]

Some people have posted a fairly bleak picture of employing people, most of it is way over the top.
If you want to employ an apprentice, go to your local college, it's exceptionally easy.
Unfortunately some of the employment advice on here seems to be from the daily mail brigade.

I'd like to add that colleges only serve a narrow demographic. I've been looking for 'adult' apprenticeships (behave) and according to government websites they exist somewhere but every apprenticeship I have found is geared towards 16 year olds.

Sent from my LG-H815 using Tapatalk

 

[YorkshireMartin]

Who said employing people was difficult or painted a bleak picture of the process?

I read it as everyone being very supportive?

I think even considering this is a noble thing all told.

Sadly, running a business these days is nothing but miles and miles of red tape, tied up in miles more. It's expensive. It makes it very hard for smaller companies to compete, and a one man band with a single apprentice even more so.



It sounds daunting and it is. But, it can be done, just not quickly or cheaply.

I read it as you did, must just be reading this the wrong way. I certainly don't feel bogged down in miles and miles of red tape. There is a bit to do but it's all fairly easy and common sense, PAYE, pensions, HSE it's not complicated.

Oh I see. I was speaking generally as that's how I feel in business these days, albeit I'm in a different sector to you. The straw that broke the camels back for me were the WEEE regulations...grr.

I think if you have the professional help of accountants and so on, it's pretty easy, but for a one man operation, it's quite a burden when you consider all the other hats they have to wear and switch between. Adding staff makes it more so. Being compliant in all areas of regulation is incredibly hard for a small business without help, and ignorance isn't an excuse in legal matters, so I'd always advise people to tread very carefully to protect themselves and their livelihood.

If you've been doing it a while Bob, it's probably second nature by now don't forget that . For someone new to it, it could be a bit of a minefield and I think that it's worth making sure that all the business aspects are fully taken care of prior to offering someone a job.

 

[Adam9453]

Yorkshire Martin, it can certainly be daunting but doing a little research on google can often solve these problems or answer questions quickly and easily without the need for professional assistance. I can sympathise with how you feel as we're a small family business and I have to solve these kind of problems daily. The key I've found is to be proactive about hunting down a solution rather than worrying about the problem as such, if you see what I mean.
Forums can be a great help to discuss business related issues as often people have been in the same situation and can offer solutions, like any other problem really. The government and hse websites also have a lot of useful info.
I have employed a few apprentices and have found it overall rewarding to the business.

 

[n0legs]

If you go to the colleges they can send someone out to go through it with you, what you need, H&S, wages, conditions, etc etc.
Certainly happens with Colleg Gwent for apprentices.

 

[YorkshireMartin]

Yorkshire Martin, it can certainly be daunting but doing a little research on google can often solve these problems or answer questions quickly and easily without the need for professional assistance. I can sympathise with how you feel as we're a small family business and I have to solve these kind of problems daily. The key I've found is to be proactive about hunting down a solution rather than worrying about the problem as such, if you see what I mean.
Forums can be a great help to discuss business related issues as often people have been in the same situation and can offer solutions, like any other problem really. The government and hse websites also have a lot of useful info.
I have employed a few apprentices and have found it overall rewarding to the business.

Hi Adam.

I sort of agree but it depends. At the risk of turning this into a business discussion, I think that getting advice from the internet can be at best hit and miss, at worst, incredibly risky because circumstances vary wildly. It's a good source of information, but in my view, such information needs to be run past an appropriately qualified person.

I agree that being proactive is an excellent method of management, but a business owner cannot be proactive in finding a solution if they are not aware there is a problem in the first place. That is where professional advice is required to ensure that the business is aware of what they are getting into, ahead of time, not to fight fires when you're already in trouble.

I've worked in business of all levels over the years, public and private, from sole traders through to multi nationals turning over hundreds of millions, in various roles. I am currently a director and non-executive director of two different companies, both of which I would consider medium sized. I'm not as experienced as some, but I've seen all manner of bizarre things over the years, in business large and small.

Allow me to give one example of why it is important for small business owners to get proper advice.

A couple of years ago, a client I consult for was taken to a tribunal by an employee who was made redundant for genuine reasons as the company was restructuring due to loss of a major client account. The employee's claim was for unfair dismissal and breach of contract. This is a common claim upon redundancy, almost automatic these days.

The claimant refused arbitration via ACAS. Following the hearing, it took the judge very little time to decide the case in favour of the respondent (company), as the employee had no genuine grounds for a claim and was, in the judge's words, not a credible witness.

Essentially, the employee was looking for an out of court settlement but were too stubborn to realise it would not happen and pride got the better of them. The company, having had professional legal advice throughout the redundancy process (at very significant cost), was confident it had done everything legally and for the right reasons. The employee was well liked and had been at the small family run firm for over 20 years, they were offered a very generous redundancy settlement and it was an emotional time for all, yet they still chose to take this course.

The overall cost to defend the spurious claim was in excess of £50,000 in legal fee's alone, not accounting for hundreds of hours of lost working time. The amount claimed by the claimant was in excess of £100,000 including claimable expenses post-dismissal. So overall, had the respondent set a foot wrong, they could have been looking at a bill of £200,000 including both sets of legal fee's but not including loss of working time, so add another £100,000 for that. By set a foot wrong, I mean literally something as simple as forgetting to allow the presence of a witness at a redundancy meeting, making a minor error in the appeals process or failing to maintain accurate records of interactions.

Now, keep in mind that the former employee had launched the claim out of nothing but malice. Also keep in mind the company in question had a turnover of only £500,000 per year. If they had failed to be diligent throughout, their business would have faced immediate insolvency due to the immoral behaviour of one former employee.

The reason I mention this is that if you are a sole trader, then without the proper information and advice you are at enormous risk, if something goes wrong. Your house, your assets, everything you own is on the line. This cannot be over emphasised. In most cases, being a limited company will not save you from such liabilities either.

I don't want anyone to think I'm anti-apprentice! That couldn't be further from the truth, I'd even like to be one myself! I'm extremely pro-business, particularly small business.

I think what I am trying to explain is, that the law, in the main, does not discriminate between small family business and large corporations. If you operate in the same industry and employ staff, you are expected to abide by the same laws. This places a significant burden on small business. There are exceptions on occasion, and entities such as tribunals will consider a small business somewhat differently to a large multinational due to resources, but the fundamentals remain the same and it pays for the small business owner to be one step ahead of the curve and it's a heck of a burden to take on alone.

So in short, I'm 100% pro apprentice, 100% pro small business but also 100% pro business knowledge.

I'm not trying to scaremonger, far from it, just be aware of what you're getting into and get professional advice before doing so. That's really all I'm saying.

I can give more examples of crazy situations like the above if anyone wishes.

Please don't let this put you off taking on staff, it's just intended as a reality check, with best intentions.

 

[defsdoor]

I would have agreed with your statement 10-20 years ago but not today, sadly a degree these days only proves that someone spent 3 years plus at university.

Usually with a degree in media studies or philosophy, or, even better, both. Which means they are experts in both thinking about watching TV and watching TV

 

[Sporky McGuffin]

I would have agreed with your statement 10-20 years ago but not today, sadly a degree these days only proves that someone spent 3 years plus at university.

People said exactly the same thing to me 15 years ago when I graduated. According to my mum (who graduated in the late 60s) people said exactly the same thing then too...

 

[mickthetree]

Before we use any power tools, let's take a moment to talk about shop safety. Be sure to read, understand, and follow all the safety rules that come with your power tools. Knowing how to use your power tools properly will greatly reduce the risk of personal injury. And remember this: there is no more important safety rule than to wear these — safety glasses.

The best of luck with it, I'm sure it will be great! But seriously, do get some basic PPE. Hearing and eye protection is a must.

 

[Eric The Viking]

... A couple of years ago, a client I consult for was taken to a tribunal by an employee who was made redundant for genuine reasons as the company was restructuring due to loss of a major client account. The employee's claim was for unfair dismissal and breach of contract. This is a common claim upon redundancy, almost automatic these days.

The claimant refused arbitration via ACAS. Following the hearing, it took the judge very little time to decide the case in favour of the respondent (company), as the employee had no genuine grounds for a claim and was, in the judge's words, not a credible witness...

...The overall cost to defend the spurious claim was in excess of £50,000 in legal fee's alone, not accounting for hundreds of hours of lost working time. The amount claimed by the claimant was in excess of £100,000 including claimable expenses post-dismissal. So overall, had the respondent set a foot wrong, they could have been looking at a bill of £200,000 including both sets of legal fee's but not including loss of working time, so add another £100,000 for that. By set a foot wrong, I mean literally something as simple as forgetting to allow the presence of a witness at a redundancy meeting, making a minor error in the appeals process or failing to maintain accurate records of interactions.

This has happened twice to one very close family member here, in one case in their business and in another in the school at which the person was a governor.

The family business incident was a very close mirror of the example you cite. The person concerned also "played the race card". Some of the cost incurred was because the tribunal bent over backwards to accommodate the plaintiff. The person didn't turn up for three successive hearing dates, citing various reasons, and, even though the evidence was rambling and internally inconsistent, the judge refused to dismiss the claim, insisting on a new date each time.

Obviously each date required a senior person from the business to attend, plus a barrister (and solicitors in the background). The plaintiff had legal aid.

Like the incident you mention, it cost the business in excess of £50,000 to defend (not recoverable, even though the claim was completely dismissed in a few minutes at the final hearing!).

In the school example, well, let's just say it was a very similar pattern, except that a union was also involved. It cost the school a great deal, too, and indirectly the taxpayers, as they were funding every cost incurred, by both sides.

As a small business, there are relatively inexpensive ways of giving yourself some protection:

I've just 'retired' for practical purposes (unless health suddenly improves - it has sometimes in the past), and I resigned from the Federation of Small Business at the beginning of the year. They may be worth joining, as membership for me was around £100/year, and it includes free legal advice.

I used it once, and found them knowledgeable and helpful - the lawyers are specialists in business law, including H+S and contracts. There's also a wealth of useful contacts, for business services, ranging from specialist insurance through to telephone systems (e.g. integrating mobile 'phones with landlines and answering services, etc.).

It's not value-for-money for everybody, but it might be useful.

Just sayin'

E.

PS: FSB membership is personal, not for the business, although you can put the FSB logo on stationery, vans, etc.