Who is in and who is out?

[cedarwood]

I have not posted on this thread but now feel compelled to, all I do know is this,
1. That all facts and figures can be interpreted for the interests of either side.
2. We in this country abide by the will of a majority vote, no matter how small it is.
3. Perhaps it is time now that we should adopt a voting system whereby ALL registered voters must vote.

There is I know the petition to the government to hold a second referendum, now I may be naive but we had the first one in 1975 and that this has been the second time the people have been asked to vote on the subject, so now do we go on and on till one side gets the result that they want.

Do we now wait till the next general election to vote in a party that says it will take us back into the EU, the lib dems have already stated that would be their intention. I for one know full well we are not going to get any preferential treatment if we go down that route and we will be much worse off than we are now.

The deal that David Cameron secured has already been torn up, we are now effectively out of the EU bar the legalities.

I do have a solution of sorts ALL those who voted to remain should move to the EU then ALL the immigrants and refugees would have plenty of room to come and live here in the UK.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

There's an interesting post on Guido Fawkes' blog about social media filter bubbles. "Eh?" I hear you say - I'd never heard of them either.

It seems that someone has been monitoring Facebook for reactions to the referendum vote, and can find virtually nothing at all from people who voted Leave, despite the fact that more voted Leave than voted Remain. He feels that this is a manifestation of a phenomenon he's noticed before, that social media tends to act as a self-supporting echo-chamber for people of similar views. They exist outside social media, too - he cites the example of the London mayoral election between Livingstone and Johnson, during which, he noticed that almost no car-drivers knew anybody voting for Livingstone, and almost no public transport users anybody voting for Johnson.

He feels that rather than promoting debate, social media is becoming a polarising influence. the divide between 'left' and 'right' of politics is becoming worse because neither side listens to the other AT ALL. Hence the utter incomprehension from some at the outcome of a democratic vote.

One thing about this thread is that at least both sides have DEBATED - put their views across. It does seem that in some parts of the wider political landscape, that's happening much less, which is worrying.

Ignore the comments - that's just Guido's usual crowd reinforcing their own prejudices to some extent, though I think the first comment does sum up why a lot of people voted Leave - it's the main post that's worth a read.

http://order-order.com/2016/06/25/socia ... ing-anger/

(Edited to correct a slight miss-reading of Guido's post on my part.)

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

Phil, the article about "cash point crime" is typical Daily Mail nonsense, a dubious claim often repeated. The source for this information was a single police officer's statement, DCI Paul Bernard, estimating from "intelligence", something based on absolutely no data. Indeed there is no records kept of "cash point crime" and no definition of a "cash point crime", indeed what is a "cash point crime"?
I employ a Romanian lad from time to time, he is hard working and honest, yet is faced with discrimination whenever he tells people where he is from. Sure there are some Romanian criminals, but it's hardly like the streets of London are dangerous because of marauding gags of Romanians. Nearly all football hooligans are white British, the figure is 96% (a figure I made up just now based on "intelligence").

Another thing, the crisis in the uk steel industry is because of global prices due to massive over production in China and nothing to do with our EU membership. Indeed the takeover looks as if it will now stall because of Brexit.

Anyway I'm off to work fixing boats. The referendum is over and we are leaving, overall I hope that you Brexiters are right and I'm wrong, no one wants a recession.

 

[RogerS]

Romanian pickpocket with twelve children.

Meet many of them ?
I'm frequently in central London where these people supposedly cause trouble, but the nearest thing to that I've ever experienced is someone trying to wash the windscreen of my car unasked.

They would have to be a pretty damned good pickpocket to pick yours while you're sitting cocooned in your car.

I really think you ought to get out more. Believing in the exaggerations and nonsense the tabloids have peddled is causing a lot of unnecessary hatred and anger.

Shall we put the debate-stifling, leaden, politically-correct claptrap firmly back in its box, eh? Just remember Rotherham and Rochdale where the PC brigade ensured all those girls were left alone to be molested.

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

Phil, the article about "cash point crime" is typical Daily Mail nonsense, a dubious claim often repeated. The source for this information was a single police officer's statement, DCI Paul Bernard, estimating from "intelligence", something based on absolutely no data. Indeed there is no records kept of "cash point crime" and no definition of a "cash point crime", indeed what is a "cash point crime"?
I employ a Romanian lad from time to time, he is hard working and honest, yet is faced with discrimination whenever he tells people where he is from. Sure there are some Romanian criminals, but it's hardly like the streets of London are dangerous because of marauding gags of Romanians. Nearly all football hooligans are white British, the figure is 96% (a figure I made up just now based on "intelligence").

Rafezetter, the crisis in the uk steel industry is because of global prices due to massive over production in China and nothing to do with our EU membership. Indeed the takeover looks as if it will now stall because of Brexit.

Anyway I'm off to work fixing boats. The referendum is over and we are leaving, overall I hope that you Brexiters are right and I'm wrong, no one wants a recession.

 

[Jacob]

....the divide between 'left' and 'right' of politics is becoming worse because neither side listens to the other AT ALL. Hence the utter incomprehension from some at the outcome of a democratic vote............
One thing about this thread is that at least both sides have DEBATED - put their views across. It does seem that in some parts of the wider political landscape, that's happening much less, which is worrying....

I agree.
But I don't think there is a cunning plot behind facebook - it's simply that you are likely to hear your own opinions reflected back from the FB friends you choose and who chose you.
In fact I've at least one Brexit FB friend who clearly isn't being stifled in any way - unstoppable - he could rant for England!

 

[Cheshirechappie]

....the divide between 'left' and 'right' of politics is becoming worse because neither side listens to the other AT ALL. Hence the utter incomprehension from some at the outcome of a democratic vote............
One thing about this thread is that at least both sides have DEBATED - put their views across. It does seem that in some parts of the wider political landscape, that's happening much less, which is worrying....

I agree.
But I don't think there is a cunning plot behind facebook - it's simply that you are likely to hear your own opinions reflected back from the FB friends you choose and who chose you.
In fact I've at least one Brexit FB friend who clearly isn't being stifled in any way - unstoppable - he could rant for England!

I agree that it's a reflection of FB friend choice. However, I still think it's pertinent. Guido makes the point that it's more a problem for the left than the right of politics; he feels that the left tend to be in more of a bubble than the right, and given the nature of what he does, he's in a good position to make a fair assessment.

If politics is to mean anything, we all have to at least hear each other's arguments. We may still disagree, but at least we'll know better what we disagree with and why.

An example - it really shocked me how many Remain voters classed all Leave voters as racist, xenophobes or bigoted. I voted for freedom and democracy, and most certainly not out of any nationalistic BNP-type prejudice, and I can't believe that there are 17 million racist, xenophobic bigots in the country. Why on earth does this sort of thing take root? Maybe the 'echo-chamber' theory partly explains it.

 

[iNewbie]

Phil, the article about "cash point crime" is typical Daily Mail nonsense, a dubious claim often repeated. The source for this information was a single police officer's statement, DCI Paul Bernard, estimating from "intelligence", something based on absolutely no data. Indeed there is no records kept of "cash point crime" and no definition of a "cash point crime", indeed what is a "cash point crime"?
I employ a Romanian lad from time to time, he is hard working and honest, yet is faced with discrimination whenever he tells people where he is from. Sure there are some Romanian criminals, but it's hardly like the streets of London are dangerous because of marauding gags of Romanians. Nearly all football hooligans are white British, the figure is 96% (a figure I made up just now based on "intelligence").

According to Police Professional there is an increase in arrests of Romanians.

http://www.policeprofessional.com/news.aspx?id=26285

That doesn't mean every case is a conviction.

My concern is the wasted time - when they could be doing other things when we're short staffed as it is.

 

[woodpig]

Romanian pickpocket with twelve children.

Meet many of them ?
I'm frequently in central London where these people supposedly cause trouble, but the nearest thing to that I've ever experienced is someone trying to wash the windscreen of my car unasked.

I really think you ought to get out more. Believing in the exaggerations and nonsense the tabloids have peddled is causing a lot of unnecessary hatred and anger.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/378232 ... ers-rising

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/po ... st-3463695

 

[AJB Temple]

This whole thing may play out in unexpected ways over the coming weeks. The silly person Farage hasnow said that he expects teh UK to enter recession but it is nothing to do with Brexiit. There is a massive public petition. Lots of leave voters expressing remorse. Increasingly vocal social media voices with young voters essentially arguing they have been betrayed by the old. Labour party imploding this morning.

We may well end up with a general election with a stay / leave agenda, and article 50 not invoked until after the election. This would probably be the best outcome for all as it would at least deliver a proper government mandate.

 

[Jacob]

.......it really shocked me how many Remain voters classed all Leave voters as racist, xenophobes or bigoted. I voted for freedom and democracy, and most certainly not out of any nationalistic BNP-type prejudice, and I can't believe that there are 17 million racist, xenophobic bigots in the country. Why on earth does this sort of thing take root? Maybe the 'echo-chamber' theory partly explains it.

Not all Leave voters were racist but definitely a lot of them were - along the lines of "I'm not a racist/xenophobe, but we don't want all these immigrants". It's been a major theme and definitely swung the vote. For many it seemed to be the only issue.

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

An example - it really shocked me how many Remain voters classed all Leave voters as racist, xenophobes or bigoted. I voted for freedom and democracy, and most certainly not out of any nationalistic BNP-type prejudice, and I can't believe that there are 17 million racist, xenophobic bigots in the country. Why on earth does this sort of thing take root? Maybe the 'echo-chamber' theory partly explains it.

Just for some clarity from my point of view. I do not think that the 17 million leave voters are xenophobes and racists, However a section of the leave campaign, Farage in particular, have run a racist xenophobic campaign, Boris not so much, he just ran a campaign to further his career. This has in my view handed a victory to racists and xenophobes, for many hard working honest people this has created a climate of fear as their future and that of their families now hangs in the balance. When my grandfather came to this country he faced massive discrimination "no dogs, no Irish", he worked hard and contributed to the UK economy (although was never the most popular man in the Sheffield factories as he fixed the clocking in machines)

One of the reasons that this forum (and your scrabble club example) has seen such argument is that we are not in our normal "echo chamber" environment as our connections here are based on our interest in woodwork and not on our general social outlook.

Facebook echo chamber effect mirrors our normal social echo chamber effect (I'm kinda guessing as I never go on facebook). There is some irony that the Guido Fawkes guy thinks that the left is more of an echo chamber than the right when his website is a massive echo chamber for the right.

This vote has made me terrified for the future of this country and I feel like our normal culture off tolerance, which is one of our greatest attributes, is being ripped up, please let me be wrong. I also think we're heading for a massive recession, please let me be wrong.

This is my last post here on Brexit as I have great respect for many of you for your woodworking knowledge and would not want this debate to sour relations.
Paddy (a descendant of immigrants whose family have done nothing but work hard and contribute to this country)

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

Romanian pickpocket with twelve children.

Meet many of them ?
I'm frequently in central London where these people supposedly cause trouble, but the nearest thing to that I've ever experienced is someone trying to wash the windscreen of my car unasked.

I really think you ought to get out more. Believing in the exaggerations and nonsense the tabloids have peddled is causing a lot of unnecessary hatred and anger.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/378232 ... ers-rising

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/po ... st-3463695

Works both ways http://www.sundayworld.com/news/crimede ... n-bulgaria

 

[MIGNAL]

There is another factor that may have swung the vote for out: the undecided. In fact I personally know 3 people who were undecided right up until voting day. All of them ended up voting out. Perhaps they weren't voting for out but change for the sake of change. Don't know, all 3 are the most confused people that I know. You send them to the shop for a loaf of bread and they come back with a packet of crisps!

 

[dynax]

I have no problem with the freedom of movement of immigrants, or even the idea of a european union, for me it is being told what to do by a bunch of a***holes, who wouldn't know a democracy from a cowpat,

 

[MIGNAL]

Wait until you get Doris and Gove. Don't know who Gove is going to see when he needs a kidney operation, Rupert Bear?

 

[Cheshirechappie]

.......it really shocked me how many Remain voters classed all Leave voters as racist, xenophobes or bigoted. I voted for freedom and democracy, and most certainly not out of any nationalistic BNP-type prejudice, and I can't believe that there are 17 million racist, xenophobic bigots in the country. Why on earth does this sort of thing take root? Maybe the 'echo-chamber' theory partly explains it.

Not all Leave voters were racist but definitely a lot of them were - along the lines of "I'm not a racist/xenophobe, but we don't want all these immigrants". It's been a major theme and definitely swung the vote. For many it seemed to be the only issue.

Immigration was most certainly a major issue. However, it wasn't hatred of immigrants, it was a reaction to the powerlessness of ordinary people to change things through the ballot box.

Immigration has been a talking point in politics for over a decade. Since the numbers allowed to enter the country rose from the 'tens of thousands a year' before about 2000, to somewhere near 300,000 net per year over the last decade or so. You will recall that the matter was on the public's radar in 2010, when Gillian Duffy's remarks to Gordon Brown, and his reaction to it, stirred huge comment. In the 2015 election, the Tories promised to limit numbers to tens of thousands annually, but it has since become abundantly clear that they are powerless to do so - the decisions have been made by higher authorities than the Westminster Parliament, and we, the people, just have to live with it, whether we like it or not.

It isn't a dislike of immigrants that has driven the size of the vote - individual immigrants have been doing what the rules allowed them to do, in good faith. Good luck to them - it takes some determination to up sticks and move to a country and culture not your own, and try to make a better life. They should be respected for making the effort, and we should be proud that they chose Britain as a good place to be. No - it's not their fault AT ALL.

However, the sheer scale of immigration has caused problems, discussed in detail elsewhere. It seems right and proper that such matters, the conflicting arguments of economic advantage and of pressure on public services and housing, should be debated and settled in Parliament by people accountable to us - the people who have to live with the consequences - through the ballot box. It's now abundantly clear that the vast majority of people are happy with immigration, provided there is a limit on numbers commensurate with the country's needs and ability to absorb it.

Except - during the referendum debate, it has become abundantly clear that in the matter of immigration, democratically accountable Parliament no longer makes the decisions. Those are made for it by people in the EU who are not in any way democratically accountable to the people over whom they govern, and to whom 'free movement' is more important than the consequences it might bring for any country or population.

The same is true of other matters, too. I tried earlier in the thread to highlight the problem of Energy policy, over which the UK now has far less control.

In the end, people looked at the slow, inexorable slipping away of control exerted by people accountable through the ballot box to people not accountable, and decided, when given the opportunity, to say that enough was enough. Enough people voted for Westminster over Brussels.

It was about Who Governs, not about immigration per se. Immigration was just the matter that highlighted the loss of Westminster's democratically-accountable control, that's all.

 

[MIGNAL]

But the leave campaign have since admitted that they never promised to reduce the numbers of immigrants, just that they can 'control' immigration.
Make of that what you will. I would call it a con. It wasn't totally concerned with immigration but it was a large factor. I'm referring to the numbers of immigrants. Unfortunately whichever way you look at it there's a certain percentage of people who are always going to vote in a racist or xenophobic manner. I was even told by one woman that 'at least the Polish will have to pay the same amount of taxes as us now'. That was the day after the result.

 

[Jacob]

...... No - it's not their fault AT ALL.

However, the sheer scale of immigration has caused problems, discussed in detail elsewhere. It seems right and proper that such matters, the conflicting arguments of economic advantage and of pressure on public services and housing,......

But EVERYBODY puts "pressure on public services and housing".
The so-called problems of immigration haven't been looked at closely and there are strong counter arguments that immigration is a net benefit and resolves rather than causes problems. To put it simply - they provide the workforce to build the houses and run public services.

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

I really got to stop reading posts cause I can't help answering and I'm sick of this.

If you see the world through the prism of the Mail and the Express no wonder you are worried about immigration. It is worth noting however that the areas with the most immigration are the areas with the lowest support of UKIP or Brexit. Down on the Cornish coast people worry about all the Romanian pick pockets, in London, not so much. Also the age group who are in most competition with immigrants for jobs and housing are the least supportive of Brexit or UKIP. Rural England is worried about change, in the cities we got used to it years ago, learning to judge people not by their place of birth ot colour of their skin but by the content of their character (to slightly paraphrase Martin Luther King).