Which wood plane's to form a Bolection mould

[adzeman]

On recently completing a router lift I had to try it out on forming a Bolection mould. From my collection of wood planes I only have one hollow plane. My efforts were not all sucessful and after a few goes produced my normal 8 out of 10 result.
My question is what would combination of planes would you have used. I dont think there would be a single plane for the job. The original stock was 2" x 1"

These are the cutters I used

This is the panel

One of the rejected mouldings with a short end of the used mould.

 

[AndyT]

I'd use a plough and several smallish sizes of hollows and rounds.
The best explanations of how to go about it are on Matt Bickford's blog - he makes and enthuses about the versatility of hollows and rounds in a totally convincing way.

http://musingsfrombigpink.blogspot.co.uk/

 

[adzeman]

Thanks Andy I sought of guessed you would respond. he mould I produced or ended up with though near enough was not quite what I wanted. I obtained the modus operundi off U tube. I copied the steps as shown which did not work so wel then I went my own way and did a bit better. I still prefer wood planes and as the Bolection Mould has been with us say for at least 300 years it must be easier by the traditional method. Some of the radii are pretty small so could be on a combination blade say like the ogee on the leading edge.
I have included my full size drg showing the cuts.

 

[dickm]

If I could only find it, pretty sure there is a similar sequence suggested in the little handbook that came with the Record 504 multi plane. But never had the courage to try it for real.

 

[Jacob]

Thanks Andy I sought of guessed you would respond. he mould I produced or ended up with though near enough was not quite what I wanted. I obtained the modus operundi off U tube. I copied the steps as shown which did not work so wel then I went my own way and did a bit better. I still prefer wood planes and as the Bolection Mould has been with us say for at least 300 years it must be easier by the traditional method. Some of the radii are pretty small so could be on a combination blade say like the ogee on the leading edge.
I have included my full size drg showing the cuts.

That's interesting. I suppose you could modify the design to match the available planes.
I've done bolection moulding copies, but on the spindle with my own DIY cutters. Easier than you'd think.

 

[Jelly]

Oddly enough, I have a plane in the workshop that cuts a miniature version of the top profile of that moulding, approxmately ½-⅓'rd the size of your intended moulding, it just requires the rebate cut with a fenced plane or straight edged guide.

 

[adzeman]

What I am really saying is I am looking for planes to purchase to enable me to make a bolection mould. I believe that when you have the privilege to own a wooden plane it should be used. I only have one hollow plane and one small ogee. |I am of the understanding that it was the spindle m/c that caused the demise of the wood moulding plane. I do have difficulty in producing long lengths of moulding say 8' 0" long. At the shop I worked in we only made short lengths to replace parts of doors etc that had a preservation order or the customer required it to be repaired.

 

[GazPal]

Someone is bound to have a hollow & round sizing chart which should help you figure out whichever plane size you need when formulating moulding layouts, but you'd need something like a #2/#3 and #12 in H & R's plus a plough/combination plane for your present design.

Matching your design to existing plane sizes helps simplify tooling and the second cut on your diagram can terminate further into the workpiece.

 

[adzeman]

Good advice Gary I have two wood plough planes and a metal unde used Record 044 which my parents bought me for my City & Guilds exam when trams were pulled by horses. The pattern has been cut out in cardboard (will try plastic). I have a 1/2" round but using the template a 3/8" is needed. I have been given an offer for a small hollow which a 1/4" hollow is required the guy making the offer is not certain what size it is. I take on board that the 2nd cut will require to be deeper and thanks for the interest.

 

[AndyT]

It's been discussed on here before but may be worth repeating. Many old books which give brief descriptions of this sort of work miss out an important detail which Matt Bickford homes in on. It is this:

For any cut with a hollow plane, the sole needs to rest on two arrises which are the edges of a chamfer.

For any cut with a round plane, the sole needs to rest on the tips of two rebates

In both cases the cut is complete when the two narrow shavings become one.

This page gives an intro:

http://musingsfrombigpink.blogspot.co.uk/2010/12/where-to-begin.html

 

[GazPal]

It's been discussed on here before but may be worth repeating. Many old books which give brief descriptions of this sort of work miss out an important detail which Matt Bickford homes in on. It is this:

For any cut with a hollow plane, the sole needs to rest on two arrises which are the edges of a chamfer.

For any cut with a round plane, the sole needs to rest on the tips of two rebates

In both cases the cut is complete when the two narrow shavings become one.

This page gives an intro:

http://musingsfrombigpink.blogspot.co.uk/2010/12/where-to-begin.html

Hi Andy,

Very true and this is what I meant when mentioning the need to deepen cut number 2 in Adze's list.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

A copy of 'Mouldings in Practice' by Matthew Sheldon Bickford would be a good investment. It's not a cheap book, but is by far and away the best reference work on hand-cut mouldings I've come across. Classic Hand Tools and (possibly) Axminster can supply, but Amazon don't stock it.

Buying hollows and rounds can be a bit of a nightmare. The numbering system for H&R's is a pain - the number corresponds to the radius of circle in 16ths of an inch up to about 10, then wanders off. Different makers used slightly different numbering systems over the years, so a no. 12 hollow may not match another maker's no 12 round. Buying matched pairs is safest, but you pay a premium. They start at no. 1 (1/16") and the largest usually found is a no.18 (my 18 round is 1 1/2") but even bigger ones occasionally turn up. Cabinetmakers would probably use mostly smaller sizes, architectural joiners would use the larger sizes of plane more often. (However just because your drawing shows a 13/16" radius feature doesn't necessarily mean that a no. 13 hollow will fit it!)

According to Matt Bickford, you don't need every size (or even every alternate size, as in a 'half-set') to cut a great variety of mouldings. However, there are a few pitfalls - the H&R's can't do it all, and sometimes have to be supplemented by side rounds, snipe bills and side rebates. These latter tend to be scarcer secondhand, and good pairs fetch silly prices. (An iron side rebate would serve, but there's no real modern substitute for the snipe bills and side rounds.)

One advantage of hand-cut mouldings over machine-cut (according to Mr. Bickford) is that the finish from the plane is usually very good, reqiuring a minimum of scraping and sanding to complete, where a spindle-cut moulding may need quite a bit of work to clean it up. Another plus is that once a set of wooden planes is to hand, they can be put to work at a moment's notice. No need to grind up (and pay for) special spindle cutters, and set up the cutter-head. On the other hand, wooden planes do need a bit of understanding - they move with the seasons to some extent, so have to be fine-tuned and set each time they're used if that's infrequent. Wooden planes are much quieter than a spindle, though....

 

[adzeman]

Wow! I have learned somthing there, that book is going on my present list. Thank you again Andy and that Cheshirechappie. I did understand your comment on the deeper cut. I will keep thr template in my pocket (two templates, one for the required shape and a larger one for a 6-6, 2-6 door) and match the hollows to it.

 

[Jacob]

...... a spindle-cut moulding may need quite a bit of work to clean it up..........

Not in my experience.
I've done lots of mouldings on a spindle with cutters I make myself - the only way to get perfect copies of period examples (by machine) and I'd say they were all perfect and never needing sanding, let alone any further work. It's not rocket science.
One of the pleasures of the spindle moulder is that you can stand there all day feeding glazing bars in (power feed) knowing that every single one will come out perfect. The power feed makes a huge difference in finish quality. Hand fed can be a problem.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

...... a spindle-cut moulding may need quite a bit of work to clean it up..........

Not in my experience.
I've done lots of mouldings on a spindle with cutters I make myself - the only way to get perfect copies of period examples (by machine) and I'd say they were all perfect and never needing sanding, let alone any further work. It's not rocket science.
One of the pleasures of the spindle moulder is that you can stand there all day feeding glazing bars in (power feed) knowing that every single one will come out perfect. The power feed makes a huge difference in finish quality. Hand fed can be a problem.

The full quote from my original post, rather than the selective quote above, is as follows;

"One advantage of hand-cut mouldings over machine-cut (according to Mr Bickford) is that the finish from the plane is usually very good, requiring a minimum of scraping and sanding to complete, where a spindle-cut moulding MAY need quite a bit of work to clean it up."

I'm quoting Matt Bickford, here, So, firstly, you need to address your comments to Mr Bickford, not me. Secondly, you state that power-fed spindle moulders usually give a good finish, but that hand-fed spindle moulders can be a problem. Mr Bickford says that spindle-cut mouldings MAY need quite a bit of work to clean them up. So, broadly speaking, you agree with Mr Bickford on this point.

Not everybody (especially the smaller shop or the amateur) will have access to power-fed spindle moulders. Not everybody needs large quantities of one moulding - a one-off or repair to an antique piece may need only one short length. Setting up a power-fed spindle moulder for one short length may not be an option. Hand working one short length of moulding may be cost-effective, or even essential if the machines are not available, and the smaller hand-fed ones can be problematic with finish. So there may be a place for a set of moulding planes and the ability to use them both for the amateur and for some professionals. That's all I (and Matt Bickford) are really saying. We're not trying to start a major controversy on the matter.

 

[GazPal]

Hi CC,

Knowing the quote came from Matt Bickford doesn't negate the points addressed by Jacob concerning the use of spindle moulders. Both perspective IMHO remain relevant to the topic and I happen to agree with each. I think Jacob simply chose to save time and space by referring directly to the point he was addressing rather than an entire passage. Hence the "selective" snip.

 

[adzeman]

I did not want to start a war over what is best I would love a spindle moulder but where would it go? The problems I am trying to solve just adding a planer/thicknesser is bad enough. The base of my planer/thicknesser is just a box and I could have filled the sides with plywood but I decided to make them as doors as I need the practice plus they have been made from scrap ply. Usiing sheet ply would have been more expensive. Setting up a spindle machine requires skill plus a health & safety requirement. Skill comes with practice. I have made the mould with the router and requires more practice which has created an urge to practice with a wood moulding plane but I have to findthe planes and then fettle them up, pure joy fo someone in retirement.

 

[Jacob]

What war? I'm not trying to put anybody off using moulding planes but Bickford is wrong about spindle moulders, except insofar as anything done badly (including by hand) might need further work doing. Spindles are very reliable and precise.
I also fully understand that not everybody has a spindle moulder. :roll:
I'd quite like to do more stuff by hand myself.

 

[GazPal]

I did not want to start a war over what is best I would love a spindle moulder but where would it go? The problems I am trying to solve just adding a planer/thicknesser is bad enough. The base of my planer/thicknesser is just a box and I could have filled the sides with plywood but I decided to make them as doors as I need the practice plus they have been made from scrap ply. Using sheet ply would have been more expensive. Setting up a spindle machine requires skill plus a health & safety requirement. Skill comes with practice. I have made the mould with the router and requires more practice which has created an urge to practice with a wood moulding plane but I have to find the planes and then fettle them up, pure joy fo someone in retirement.

A piece of kit such as spindle moulder definitely needs regular use - plus practise to master properly - so you can justify having one around.

H&R's tend not to need too much fettling to bring them back into play, but are the dimensions for your mouldings finalised Mike? I'm just wondering because I may have a few H&R's you could have. I can have a nip over to the old workshop and check they're still in my tool chest there, but can't promise anything because my son may have "borrowed" them.

 

[adzeman]

I went off this afternoon hunting for a couple of moulding planes. Wish I had taken my camera for their in the entrance just collected a second hand spindle moulder. Do you fancy it Mike? No I am looking for something a bit smaller about 9" long preferably with gabriel stamped on? Nothing stamped Gabrial but a couple of suitable hollow's