Which Gouge Sweep No. to Start With?

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J_SAMa

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^Want to get started in carving but don't know what gouges to buy... Catalogs are simply too overwhelming with their huge ranges of sweeps and widths.
Say I want to begin with simple things such as spoons and patterns on box lids, what gouges/carving tools should I buy first? I.e. what sweep No. and what width. I'm probably buying Two Cherries as I'm impressed with their chisels.
Whats confusing though is that most, if not all brands of carving tools (Two Cherries, Henry Taylor, Ashley Iles, Stubai, Pfeil...) seem to cost about the same. Does that mean they are of the same quality? Don't know about Henry Taylor or Stubai but the other three make chisels that seem to be on par with each other. :roll:
Sam
 
Also, while I'm at it, I think i should also get some scrapers. The question is what burnisher to use? There are round and triangular and also them fancy carbide burnishers (hammer) Can I just as well use the back of a small chisel (burnishers are about as hard as chisels right :? )?
 
I'd start with just one cheapo such as this.
Your main priority with carving is sharpening so you might as well get your practice in on a cheap one you don't mind spoiling. It'll carve just like a posh one if it's sharp enough.
Then actually do some carving as best you can, with a few ordinary chisels as well, and any other tools you can muster. Then eventually you will have a better idea of what you really need.
Worst option is to buy a set - ten tools you can't use, instead of just one, and be put off for life!

Paul Sellers says something similar here
 
I would be tempted to get something and have a go. Judge from the results whether it is a bit big or small and a bit deep or shallow. Sharpening is critical. If you can restore edges, I would be tempted to get a job lot from eBay- half a dozen or so of any name so at least you can try a few. If they don't work for you, sell them on.

A v tool would be very useful and they are about the worst to sharpen!
 
The first thing I would do is find a specific project you want to try, then buy the gouges for that project. I like two cherries myself as they tend to be usable as they come, Henry Taylor etc tend to be grind at too high an angle and have to be reground. Quality wise they are all about the same.

One tool you will definitely need is a v-tool, I strongly recommend starting with cheap ones just to learn how to sharpen them. Of all the common chisels they are the hardest to get your head around when it comes to sharpening.

When it comes to scrapers I've always used a round burnisher, I use a carbide burnisher, but you only need one that is harder than the scraper. For scraping carvings I often grind a specific shape that I need and then grind a bevel, i don't turn a burr on my carving scrapers.

One thing I would advise is raising your bench up if you have a low joiners bench. It will save your back and get you closer to the work. Talking of which one of the hardest parts of carving is work holding, for carving flat furniture pieces you may want to look into a fence and wedge system as it is more convenient than working around clamps.

The two most fundamental skills in carving are sharpening and being able to carve with either hand. If you don't learn to become ambidextrous you will spend half your time turning your work around.
 
J_SAMa":2g4ztxxd said:
^Want to get started in carving but don't know what gouges to buy... Catalogs are simply too overwhelming with their huge ranges of sweeps and widths.
Say I want to begin with simple things such as spoons and patterns on box lids, what gouges/carving tools should I buy first? I.e. what sweep No. and what width. I'm probably buying Two Cherries as I'm impressed with their chisels.
Whats confusing though is that most, if not all brands of carving tools (Two Cherries, Henry Taylor, Ashley Iles, Stubai, Pfeil...) seem to cost about the same. Does that mean they are of the same quality? Don't know about Henry Taylor or Stubai but the other three make chisels that seem to be on par with each other. :roll:
Sam

Hi Sam

First of all, do not buy the one Jacob has linked to. It's a specialist sweep and you'll probably never use it on the projects you mention. I have several and very rarely are they out of the box. His logic however makes sense in as much as you don't need to spend much to try it out but get a straight or fish tailed if that's the way you want to go.

There are differences in quality and although I have no personal experiences of Two Cherries or Stubai, I have the other makes and all are decent. My personal preference is Pfeil but you'll make up your own mind over time.

Both Jacob and Marcros are spot on about sharpening though I would qualify that by saying that IMO angles don't matter much as it all depends on the materials you are carving and they would be altered to suit, eg different for oak as opposed to basswood. It's honing and polishing the edge that matters, something that's done constantly and very quickly by stropping whilst you're carving to keep it razor sharp and the polished bevel leaves a nice finish on the timber as well as effortless carving. It isn't a difficult skill to master, apart from V gouges, and you'll get plenty of practice. :wink:

In my case I own a fair number of carving chisels, far too many in fact as very few are in regular action whilst the rest just sit there to be admired. I't surprising how few you need to produce decent work, (chip carving is a slightly different matter). I have 5 or 6 which cover most of my needs my favourite workhorse being a Pfeil 1/2" no 5 fishtail. I also use a 3/8 no 1 and a v gouge quite a lot. Other carvers swear by having the precice sweep for each cut - each to his own method! Fishtails won't have as long a working life but allow you to get into corners more easily. Remeber that you can also reverse a gouge to make a covex rather than concave cut so dual purpose.

I started with a set of 6 palm sized chisels which were acorn brand by Henry Taylor and they are still used at times. They were a present but not expensive and good enough to show I wanted to carry on. I bought a few new as needed and also some old good quality second hand. What I did find immediately was that my first problem was holding the wood to be worked on and that a B&D workmate has serious limitations so more to consider. You can't carve unless you can hold the stuff and it helps to use a chisel sometimes with your other hand.
For stropping there are numerous solutions (just don't post a sharpening thread whatever you do or you'll start a war :wink: ) do a search or look on the web.

To summarise:

Don't buy a large set of anything or you'll waste your money, unless you can find a s/h collection at a good price. Buy good quality as they'll last a very long time and more importantly, you'll enjoy using them. Buy only as you find a need them and you won't be wasting your money (unless you like collecting like me :lol: ).
Not too difficult to choose. Look at what you want to carve, maybe draw it and you'll see how tight the angles and curves / radius are and choose accordingly

and... most importantly of all, carving is a very individual activity and everyone will offer conflicting advice based on personal preference, none of it wrong but not necessarily right for you as you'll find your own way. If you can find a club local to you then approach them as it will help enormously and as said just have a go even if it's with whatever you have already, just try it on wood that doesn't matter.

Hope that helps even if it's a bit of an essay :)

Bob

ps Flexicut are worth considering as well. I tried one of a mates chisels and it cut beautifully.
 
Scapers.

Imake up my own from old handsaw and hacksaw blades if I need them. Easy to grind into a specific profile and cost £0
 
I own a few by some of the modern makers you mentioned: Pfeil, Taylor, Stubai, Two cherries and Ashley Iles. They are all very decent of course but I find the Iles handle to be the most comfortable for me. It's very easy to buy the wrong sweep/type, unless you have experience and know fully well what gouge is needed for a particular task. I know, I've done it!
For the burnisher: go on Ebay and buy a car/truck exhaust valve. It will cost just a few pounds. It marks a LOT less than the Two Cherries burnisher that I bought - which isn't very good at all.
Thanks to this forum for the car/truck valve burnisher idea!
 
J_SAMa":3g1n43jc said:
^Want to get started in carving but don't know what gouges to buy... Catalogs are simply too overwhelming with their huge ranges of sweeps and widths.
Say I want to begin with simple things such as spoons and patterns on box lids, what gouges/carving tools should I buy first? I.e. what sweep No. and what width. I'm probably buying Two Cherries as I'm impressed with their chisels.
Whats confusing though is that most, if not all brands of carving tools (Two Cherries, Henry Taylor, Ashley Iles, Stubai, Pfeil...) seem to cost about the same. Does that mean they are of the same quality? Don't know about Henry Taylor or Stubai but the other three make chisels that seem to be on par with each other. :roll:
Sam


http://www.woodcentral.com/woodworking/ ... er-s-list/
 
Lons":276l3ha4 said:
....
First of all, do not buy the one Jacob has linked to. It's a specialist sweep and you'll probably never use it on the projects you mention. ......
I'm sure you are right but I guess that if it was the only one you had it'd turn out to be really useful.
I have used one the same as in the Paul Sellers Link, which was fine.
I'll kick off the sharpening fracas by suggesting that if you have a lathe then a ply disc on the back end of the headstock at slow speed, with Autosol, works really well. Round off the edge of the disc for inside the gouge.
 
charvercarver":k151406i said:
The first thing I would do is find a specific project you want to try, then buy the gouges for that project. I like two cherries myself as they tend to be usable as they come, Henry Taylor etc tend to be grind at too high an angle and have to be reground. Quality wise they are all about the same.

One tool you will definitely need is a v-tool, I strongly recommend starting with cheap ones just to learn how to sharpen them. Of all the common chisels they are the hardest to get your head around when it comes to sharpening.

When it comes to scrapers I've always used a round burnisher, I use a carbide burnisher, but you only need one that is harder than the scraper. For scraping carvings I often grind a specific shape that I need and then grind a bevel, i don't turn a burr on my carving scrapers.

One thing I would advise is raising your bench up if you have a low joiners bench. It will save your back and get you closer to the work. Talking of which one of the hardest parts of carving is work holding, for carving flat furniture pieces you may want to look into a fence and wedge system as it is more convenient than working around clamps.

The two most fundamental skills in carving are sharpening and being able to carve with either hand. If you don't learn to become ambidextrous you will spend half your time turning your work around.

I think wooden utensils are a good place to start. No nonsense about it.
How high specifically should a carving bench be? Mine is at 890 mm now.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why is everyone stressing the importance of sharpening now? Is it really that hard :? (Let's try not to turn this into a sharpening thread :| )
 
I'd leave it at 890. There isn't a magic formula of details, tool shapes and sizes - you have to get stuck in with whatever tools you can muster, and find your way around. The only really important detail is sharpening but that'll improve as you go.
 
If you look at the Paul sellers YouTube channel I think he has a video on how to carve a spoon using gouges.

For the bench I would go with belly button height, remember you are never really bearing down on your work, as you would be for planing, so you don't need the leverage. When I use a carvers vice for in the round work the piece is at chest level for example.

The vast majority of carving tools are not much harder to sharpen than straight chisels, but you will be touching them up on the strop a lot more often. Generally you need your tools sharp enough to leave a finished surface that doesn't require sanding unless you are going for a specific effect. Of course you also need them that sharp so you have very fine control over your cuts. At the risk of starting a war, the only way to sharpen a gouge is freehand, at least I don't know of any other way.

The hardest common tool to sharpen is the v-tool, it does take some practice, but you will get there with perseverance. You won't need one for a spoon unless you want to decorate it with relief carving.
 
charvercarver":obh1z4qm said:
For the bench I would go with belly button height, remember you are never really bearing down on your work, as you would be for planing, so you don't need the leverage. When I use a carvers vice for in the round work the piece is at chest level for example.

The vast majority of carving tools are not much harder to sharpen than straight chisels, but you will be touching them up on the strop a lot more often. Generally you need your tools sharp enough to leave a finished surface that doesn't require sanding unless you are going for a specific effect. Of course you also need them that sharp so you have very fine control over your cuts. At the risk of starting a war, the only way to sharpen a gouge is freehand, at least I don't know of any other way.

The hardest common tool to sharpen is the v-tool, it does take some practice, but you will get there with perseverance. You won't need one for a spoon unless you want to decorate it with relief carving.

I absolutely agree with all of that though hight of the work clearly depends on whether you sit or stand. My carving is mostly in the round and I prefer to be seated on a stool. I have been tempted to make a bench with a seat but never got around to it.

Onc the bevel is right I hone / strop mine very regularly whilst working, takes only seconds. How often is dictated by hardness of timber but you quickly develop a feel for the timing.

I'm sure you are right but I guess that if it was the only one you had it'd turn out to be really useful.
I wasn't having a go Jacob, actually not even disagreeing but if he's going to buy one tool then a straight shank is more useful for more projects.

Bob
 
Back in the 1980's woodworker ran a series on carving. There were several projects in several styles (linen fold, bas relief, and figuratitve), but only 6 chisels were used, and these 6 addressed all the projects. At the time they had a reader offer with a maker (Ashley Iles, IIRC) to buy these chisels at a good price, and the chisels each had a different colour handle to make them easy to distinguish at a glance.

I don't know if this carving series has been reprinted.

BugBear
 
bugbear":3gdwnkea said:
Back in the 1980's woodworker ran a series on carving. There were several projects in several styles (linen fold, bas relief, and figuratitve), but only 6 chisels were used, and these 6 addressed all the projects. At the time they had a reader offer with a maker (Ashley Iles, IIRC) to buy these chisels at a good price, and the chisels each had a different colour handle to make them easy to distinguish at a glance.

I don't know if this carving series has been reprinted.

BugBear

This sounds like a very good series of articles, if anyone can look up some dates I'd be extremely grateful - I've looked on ebay and I've found Jan 1984 has an article on selecting wood for carving and April has Indian carving, but can't tell if they were part of this series or not.

Cheerio,

Carl
 
I have started trawling through copies of Woodworker from the 1980s and have found the following so far:
- Jan. 1982: Figure & Decorative Carving by Harry Turner, Part. 1,
- Apr. 1982: Part. 2,
- May. 1982: Part. 3,
- Dec. 1982: Part. 4,
- Apr. 1983: Part. 5.
Six tools are mentioned but are not described in detail (they are referred to as “a boxed set suitable for most early needs”). However, there is no mention of colour coded handles or a special offer for purchase, so I wonder if BB is remembering another series.
Dec. 1982 also contains various other carving articles including carving a horse by Ian Norbury.
It is interesting to see the variety of subjects covered by these old issues, including history, clock cases, carving, musical instruments, toys, joints, finishing, seasoning, as well as furniture and turning. Rather a contrast with the present day...
 
How do you all sharpen? Slip stones or just plain stones? I imagine it'd be hard to sharpen the non-beveled side of a bent gouge on a flat stone.
Whats with the bevel angles? I've seen a few videos and they all seem to sharpen at a much lower angle (around 25 as opposed to 30...) than normal chisels. Especially the "corner" of the v-tool, looks as low as 15.

Also those "slip strops", are they worthwhile? One of those can cost me 20...
 

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