Which course, Paul Sellers or Peter Sefton

[Mr T]

Peter is quite right about rods being good for curved complex angled work. I am teaching my router skills course this week and students are working from a full size workshop drawing to pick up the angles for the curved legs on the course project. On my chair making course the first day is devoted to drawing up the full size drawing of the chair.

Rods, also called story sticks, specifically are like condensed workshop drawings, consisting of lay outs of the project components in the three different dimensions. This is handy when the project is large as the rods can be laid out on a strip of board rather than having to draw the whole thing life size They are very useful for fitted furniture because you can specify the space the furniture will occupy by offering the rod up to the actual position. Then you can lay out the components within that space. The cutting list can be drawn up from the rod and the components offered up to the rod to check accuracy. It is a tricky concept to explain briefly in writing!

I planned to try explaining this in the design chapter of my book. But the whole chapter was cut due to lack of space. So I will be posting the chapter on the resources page for the book on my web site.

 

[bugbear]

Rods is a new one on me.

It's just a bizarre name for what most people would call a 1:1 plan.

(an actual rod is called a "story stick", obviously :roll: )

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

Rods is a new one on me.

It's just a bizarre name for what most people would call a 1:1 plan.

(an actual rod is called a "story stick", obviously :roll: )

BugBear

The name "story stick" probably originates with stair makers. The basic starting "rod" is a literal stick or lath; one end on the floor and the other end against the edge of the floor above and marked (i.e. measuring the "storey" height).
This is then laid down and divided (with "dividers) by the number of steps to give the riser height.
Similar for the horizontal - another stick on the ground from a point perp below the face of the top riser to ditto the bottom riser, divided to give the goings.

The "rod" is a full size sectional drawing of the project, on a board, detailed as necessary so that all marks required can be taken off directly from the drawing onto the workpieces. They are laid on the rod (in a stack where multiple) and marks taken off with a pencil and a set square, without having to measure or calculate anything.
It is handy (essential?) even for simple one offs at the simplest level; say you wanted to mark 5 pieces at 8" - you mark 8" on the rod, lay the 5 pieces in a stack on the rod and mark them all in one operation. Quicker than applying a tape to each one and also eliminates many basic sources of error.

 

[sploo]

Ah. Got it. I've heard of story sticks before, but not the term "rods". I have done 1:1 drawings or mockups before.

TBH I do find Sketchup really useful these days - as you can make a model and get accurate measurements and angles. Obviously it's less convenient if you're in the garage, don't have the computer, and forgot to check something - but nonetheless it usually works for me.

Peter - good article about the stool BTW. I do like ash, so the notes on finishing it without darkening are useful.

 

[Jacob]

...t rods i.... we use them mainly when undertaking curved, angled or repetitive work but are used in stick for more by joiners for sash windows and the like.....

It's odd that "the rod" has been largely forgotten by current woodworkers.
They are useful (essential) for any/many projects whether fine furniture or rough joinery.
Also used extensively by other crafts. The same principles at work with dress makers patterns, sailmakers, boatbuilders, steel yards and so on.
My first experience would be with model aircraft - bits of balsa laid up and pinned over the actual plan on paper making complex shapes which would be quite impossible without "the rod", though it wasn't called that of course.

 

[skipdiver]

The guy who used to make stuff for me from time to time would use a rod. When i had him make an oak staircase he put all the measurements on a piece of timber at the house, which ties in with what Jacob says about story/storey sticks. When i asked him why he did it, he said that mistakes happen with written measurements but the marks on his stick do not lie. Making an oak staircase wrong is a costly business. It fitted perfectly, as did all the angled oak panelling that went down the wall to the side and down the hallway.

 

[sploo]

My first experience would be with model aircraft - bits of balsa laid up and pinned over the actual plan on paper making complex shapes which would be quite impossible without "the rod", though it wasn't called that of course.

Without knowing what it was called, it's something I have used myself - specifically when making a 4 meter tall replica of the Eiffel tower. Obviously the full scale story stick was full scale for the 4 meter tall version... not actual full scale :wink:

 

[RobinBHM]

My first experience would be with model aircraft - bits of balsa laid up and pinned over the actual plan on paper making complex shapes which would be quite impossible without "the rod", though it wasn't called that of course.

Without knowing what it was called, it's something I have used myself - specifically when making a 4 meter tall replica of the Eiffel tower. Obviously the full scale story stick was full scale for the 4 meter tall version... not actual full scale :wink:

actual full scale might have required a somwhat large increase in your workshop roof height

 

[RobinBHM]

I thought a 'rod' was a common term in joinery.

 

[sploo]

actual full scale might have required a somwhat large increase in your workshop roof height

Indeed.

Ironically it turned out to be too tall anyway - it was for a Red Bull Soap Box race, and they neglected to tell us the finishing arch was not 4m tall. The results were suitably amusing.

 

[screwpainting]

The name "story stick" probably originates with stair makers. The basic starting "rod" is a literal stick or lath; one end on the floor and the other end against the edge of the floor above and marked (i.e. measuring the "storey" height).

As Paddy said to Mick when laying down the flagpole to measure it...

'Don't be an silly person Mick, we want to know how tall it is, not how long'

 

[Knox-on-Wood]

I would echo all the comments made about Chris and his courses.

 

[Peter Sefton]

I have done very little on YouTube as I spend pretty much all day everyday on the bench with my students, my first real venture onto the screen will be in a couple of months time. I have been working with Artisan Media who Paul sellers was launch by a few years ago. We are currently editing a series of DVDs to be launched in the new year, watching yourself is a little weird, only time will tell how it is perceived by the public but I feel my approach is quite different from Pauls.

Cheers Peter

Thanks for mentioning Artisan media Peter, to my shame I had not heard of them before and I see they have an online shop which I'll have a look at later.

I find it interesting that you are working with them on DVDs. Of late there have been a number of threads on here about whether a market for instructional DVDs still exists, or whether they have been hounded out of existence. Some have taken the position that DVD is an outdated delivery method now superseded by downloads, some have taken the view that nobody will pay for content with the vast amount of material being turned out by YouTubers.


We still buy DVDs in our family, even for our tech savvy kids who (maybe influenced by their parents) still like having something tangible. I also watch a lot of YouTube content and it is of variable quality. However, I would categorise it as entertainment and sometimes informative, but not instructional or educational. So personally I think there is a market for high quality instructional DVDs, but whether that is a market of just one I can't say. However, I guess Artisan Media are better placed to take a view and they must think there is one as well.

Anyway, best of luck with the DVDs.

Terry.

Terry
I guess I have spent about 3 or 4 weeks working on the content since Easter, with script writing, filming and editing, with Artisan doing as much work putting everything together with editing, adding titles, music and adding images. They have been very professional and have produced a fantastic quality product - far better than we could have ever achieved on our own. I think the market has developed more towards download than DVD but it depends on the customer’s choice of medium.

The filming is currently being edited for DVD format and will also be available as a digital download to cover both options.

Only time will tell if there is a market or if free stuff on You Tube has it covered. I have tried to cover the areas in a similar depth and breadth as I do with my full time students but there is nothing better than being in an interactive environment with woodworkers to tease out more information. We still have to evaluate how best to bring the in depth downloads to market, the idea is to encourage woodworking and offer a high level of knowledge and experience rather than competing with the weekend woodworker and a Sony Camcorder.

As you know the short courses tend to book up well and this is a way of reaching a broader audience, this has meant I have done a few less short courses this year, we will have to see how DVD’s/downloads are received and whether we film the wood machining series next, or revert back to just workshop delivery teaching next year.

Cheers Peter

 

[El Barto]

I have done very little on YouTube as I spend pretty much all day everyday on the bench with my students, my first real venture onto the screen will be in a couple of months time. I have been working with Artisan Media who Paul sellers was launch by a few years ago. We are currently editing a series of DVDs to be launched in the new year, watching yourself is a little weird, only time will tell how it is perceived by the public but I feel my approach is quite different from Pauls.

Cheers Peter

Thanks for mentioning Artisan media Peter, to my shame I had not heard of them before and I see they have an online shop which I'll have a look at later.

I find it interesting that you are working with them on DVDs. Of late there have been a number of threads on here about whether a market for instructional DVDs still exists, or whether they have been hounded out of existence. Some have taken the position that DVD is an outdated delivery method now superseded by downloads, some have taken the view that nobody will pay for content with the vast amount of material being turned out by YouTubers.


We still buy DVDs in our family, even for our tech savvy kids who (maybe influenced by their parents) still like having something tangible. I also watch a lot of YouTube content and it is of variable quality. However, I would categorise it as entertainment and sometimes informative, but not instructional or educational. So personally I think there is a market for high quality instructional DVDs, but whether that is a market of just one I can't say. However, I guess Artisan Media are better placed to take a view and they must think there is one as well.

Anyway, best of luck with the DVDs.

Terry.

Terry
I guess I have spent about 3 or 4 weeks working on the content since Easter, with script writing, filming and editing, with Artisan doing as much work putting everything together with editing, adding titles, music and adding images. They have been very professional and have produced a fantastic quality product - far better than we could have ever achieved on our own. I think the market has developed more towards download than DVD but it depends on the customer’s choice of medium.

The filming is currently being edited for DVD format and will also be available as a digital download to cover both options.

Only time will tell if there is a market or if free stuff on You Tube has it covered. I have tried to cover the areas in a similar depth and breadth as I do with my full time students but there is nothing better than being in an interactive environment with woodworkers to tease out more information. We still have to evaluate how best to bring the in depth downloads to market, the idea is to encourage woodworking and offer a high level of knowledge and experience rather than competing with the weekend woodworker and a Sony Camcorder.

As you know the short courses tend to book up well and this is a way of reaching a broader audience, this has meant I have done a few less short courses this year, we will have to see how DVD’s/downloads are received and whether we film the wood machining series next, or revert back to just workshop delivery teaching next year.

Cheers Peter

This sounds great - I'd definitely be interested in downloadable content. You should check out Vimeo's On Demand service - it's by far the best way to consume things like this on the web (in my opinion). The video quality and accessibility are second to none. I've bought several films and boxsets through the service and always been really pleased with it. I can't, however, speak for how commission/revenue works, but as champions of indie filmmaking I imagine it would be quite reasonable.

Sorry for the hard sell... I just really like the service

 

[Steve Maskery]

I looked at Vimeo and it did look very good in many ways. The biggest off-put for me was the rather large number of people who complained that it cost them too much to host compared with the actual revenues they received. Sure there are the brilliant success stories, but if you look at the films that really make it, not many of them are the sort of instructional videos that we are talking about here. The number of people who would like to watch some indie blockbuster is millions of times greater than the number of people who want to watch a guy pottering about in his home workshop. The markets are completely different.
The "you can find it all for free on YouTube" mentality, which we see a lot of on here, unfortunately, means that it is very easy to spend a lot of time and not an inconsiderable amount of money producing something of excellent quality, only to find that it is difficult to sell because there is no perceived value difference between the paid-for product and the YT freebie. Everyone wants to watch good video, too few people are prepared to pay for it, in my experience.
There is a widespread view that Intellectual Property should be free at the point of consumption and that the costs of production should be paid for by somebody else. Anybody else. But not me. Get Sponsorship. Get advertising. And I'll install an Ad-blocker. But not me.
We have to try to change this view.

I hope that Peter's DVDs are very successful. They should be, I've been to his open days and seen the quality of the work produced there. Anything that grows the market and raises standards is good in my book.

And just to be balanced, I've seen Chris Tribe's work, too. Just fantastic.

If I had the resources I would gladly book myself on both their courses.

 

[NickN]

Just a quick report back from the mini open day at Peter Sefton's Woodworking School - first time I've been there or met him.

Nice facilities, spacious enough and well laid out with a good mix of hand tools and electrickery powered machines, and friendly staff too. During the space of a short Router Lift and Table demonstration I went from "I never ever want a power router or table in my workshop" to "I really want a nice shiny Jessem Router Lift and Table, gimme, now". Well almost anyway... need to learn how to use a router first.

What I have come away with though, apart from a nearly new WoodRiver 4 1/2 plane at less than half the new price, and a heavily discounted new seconds Low Angle Block plane, is a firm desire to book in on one of the future 5 day beginners courses, once I can arrange the time off work to suit. Spoke at some length with Peter about the course content and it has a really good thorough grounding in all aspects of woodworking, including the all important (to me) practical techniques of achieving things like straight sawing and sawing the wrong side of the line, etc. I was very impressed by the standard of the work previous students have created, and also it seems to me that Peter really wants the students to achieve the highest possible standard, and learn precision woodworking with a range of both hand and machine tools.

It's not to say that I won't try and get to one or two of the other teachers and their courses mentioned here too, but the priority will definitely be to go on one of Peter's as soon as I can, even more so as it's only a 40 minute journey from me.

 

[Steve Maskery]

Result! Glad you had a good day.

 

[MrTeroo]

I really wanted to go to that but I am in Lingfield on a family occasion today :?

 

[Bm101]

I'm thinking of running a course myself. It's called 'Loft Conversions and all associated trades'. Unlike your bog standard usual type of course, this is an opportunity! It's a chance for highly skilled tradesmen to gather together and have a warm (once the roofers have completed their course, payment and booking separate please), and friendly place to discuss skills and compete in a friendly welcoming atmosphere as to who can work to the best possible standards at the cheapest possible outlay. You will be able to learn and improve many skills from fellow tradesmen from plumbing to wiring up to plastering. If things go well there and no one catches on there will be future courses in kitchen fitting, hard landscaping and vehicle maintenance. Possibly even child minding. You'll need to provide all your own tools and materials. As a course host and 'registered edumacator' we will be happy to make you a cuppa (ltd to 3 per day, 1.5 if you take sugar) and change our minds constantly about Juliet Balconies half way through the build. 'Course', I mean 'Course!'

All applicants please register by PM asap to avoid disappointment. Are you up to the challenge!?! Well. Are you!?!

(hammer)
You never know.

 

[skipdiver]

Add bacon butties and i'm in.