Which course, Paul Sellers or Peter Sefton

[MikeJhn]

Everybody is eventually promoted to the level of their own incompetence, its called the Peter Principle.

Mike

 

[meccarroll]

.........
Maybe if I put it this way: I've asked a couple of questions the course providers now have an opportunity to answer and maybe provide further information

Peter Sefton is highly qualified - it's on his web site.

I've looked on Peter Sefton's web site (and a good few of the others out of interest) and read a bit about him. On his web site there is some information about him being asked to set up a furniture course at his local college and I believe he also taught the BTEC National Diploma in Furniture Design too but I could not find which qualifications he has.

I think it's quite interesting to know a bit about the private side of education in the woodwork industry and as Peter Sefton said earlier in the thread...........................



.................................. Mr Sefton:

I think when assessing a course it is worth considering a few factors which may affect your expectation or experience


Does your tutor have any teaching and/or assessing qualifications, and are they experienced at teaching or are they a commercial workshop that has a bit of spare bench space and a desire to improve their cash flow?

Is the teacher experienced in that subject area and has the facilities to teach it fully. In sharpening for example does the teacher demonstrate a wide variety of medium and have them available for you to use?..............................


Cheers Peter

After reading the above I thought why not ask as I was dying to know. I'm betting he has a Cert Ed (Certificate in Education) but I'm not sure. It's what college lecturers aim to achieve as it is a further/higher education certificate for lecturing in courses like the one you did in college.

Mark

 

[RobinBHM]

Judging by the stupid ideology of current thinking in PGCE training anybody NOT qualified to teach is likely to do a better job.

Perhaps these privately run courses should be Ofsted inspected...........

 

[meccarroll]

Judging by the stupid ideology of current thinking in PGCE training anybody NOT qualified to teach is likely to do a better job.

Perhaps these privately run courses should be Ofsted inspected...........

Think they (not all) run outside of, Ofstead, mainstream regulation LoL

 

[bugbear]

So it is with teaching. Teaching is a skill and it's very different from making. Making is a self absorbing process, teaching is quite the opposite, nothing to do with self. It is unsurprising that many competent makers fail to make good teachers and equally, many average or worse makers can in fact make great teachers.

Agreed in all regards.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

.........
Maybe if I put it this way: I've asked a couple of questions the course providers now have an opportunity to answer and maybe provide further information

Peter Sefton is highly qualified - it's on his web site.

I've looked on Peter Sefton's web site (and a good few of the others out of interest) and read a bit about him. On his web site there is some information about him being asked to set up a furniture course at his local college and I believe he also taught the BTEC National Diploma in Furniture Design too but I could not find which qualifications he has.

I think it's quite interesting to know a bit about the private side of education in the woodwork industry and as Peter Sefton said earlier in the thread...........................



.................................. Mr Sefton:

I think when assessing a course it is worth considering a few factors which may affect your expectation or experience


Does your tutor have any teaching and/or assessing qualifications, and are they experienced at teaching or are they a commercial workshop that has a bit of spare bench space and a desire to improve their cash flow?

Is the teacher experienced in that subject area and has the facilities to teach it fully. In sharpening for example does the teacher demonstrate a wide variety of medium and have them available for you to use?..............................


Cheers Peter

After reading the above I thought why not ask as I was dying to know. I'm betting he has a Cert Ed (Certificate in Education) but I'm not sure. It's what college lecturers aim to achieve as it is a further/higher education certificate for lecturing in courses like the one you did in college.

Mark

Look on his web site http://www.peterseftonfurnitureschool.c ... er_sefton/ it's no secret.
His anorak will be covered with badges!

 

[tomatwark]

The point that is being missed here is.

If you are serving an apprenticeship the role of the college is to provide you with a qualification, and to give you an insight into the things that you may not do at your work place, most of your learning should be by experience, on the job.

This is why a lot of people who do a full time course struggle when they hit the employment market, because they do not have the work experience and lack the speed need to make the company money.

The courses that Peter Sefton, Paul Sellers and the like run are largely aimed at the amateur, who want to spend their money to make the hobby more enjoyable and hopefully with respect to using machines safer.

It is their money and if the courses are not up to their expectations it is for them to complain about them.

Good luck to the folks who run these courses, as an employer I have to train and teach my staff to make sure that they know what they are doing just to cover myself with the HSE and to make sure that the work we produce is to a good standard.

I do use an external training company for some of this and also a couple go to the local college, but still do some of it myself.

The difference is that the folks paying for the courses choose what they want to learn, guys working for me learn what I need them too, but I have to pay them and the training provider.

 

[meccarroll]

Look on his web site http://www.peterseftonfurnitureschool.c ... er_sefton/ it's no secret.
His anorak will be covered with badges!

Similar to the one you have Jacob:

Good point. On my TOPS/C&G course we were taught by retired tradesmen who had also done a teaching course with respect to their trade. In other words they had years of experience behind them. We got a certificate or something - but it was well deserved if you had lasted the full stretch and got the marks.

It's just self development Jacob and not a bad thing as you are aware.

Mark

 

[Jacob]

Look on his web site http://www.peterseftonfurnitureschool.c ... er_sefton/ it's no secret.
His anorak will be covered with badges!

Similar to the one you have Jacob:

Good point. On my TOPS/C&G course we were taught by retired tradesmen who had also done a teaching course with respect to their trade. In other words they had years of experience behind them. We got a certificate or something - but it was well deserved if you had lasted the full stretch and got the marks.

It's just self development Jacob and not a bad thing as you are aware.

Mark

Yes I suppose I ought to expand my own CV. All sorts of things could go in; was a bus conductor, farm labourer, quarry worker, etc etc. in the scouts I was patrol leader (Peewit patrol)

 

[meccarroll]

Look on his web site http://www.peterseftonfurnitureschool.c ... er_sefton/ it's no secret.
His anorak will be covered with badges!

Similar to the one you have Jacob:

Good point. On my TOPS/C&G course we were taught by retired tradesmen who had also done a teaching course with respect to their trade. In other words they had years of experience behind them. We got a certificate or something - but it was well deserved if you had lasted the full stretch and got the marks.

It's just self development Jacob and not a bad thing as you are aware.

Mark

Yes I suppose I ought to expand my own CV. All sorts of things could go in; was a bus conductor, farm labourer, quarry worker, etc etc. in the scouts I was patrol leader (Peewit patrol)

Aw, Your'e so cute Jacob. Just for that I'll give you a X now you send me one back :ho2

 

[Peter Sefton]

I think when assessing a course it is worth considering a few factors which may affect your expectation or experience.

Who exactly is teaching the course? Not the same as whose name is over the door. The person delivering the subject may be the technician or a workshop assistant; and in some cases it can be a fellow student!

Will the tutor be dedicated to the students that have paid for their time and expertise for the whole duration of the course, or will they be running other courses at the same time, or teaching your course for part of the day and leaving you with others to deliver the majority of your learning, or even dealing with their commercial customers? What is the main focus of their business and consider how that will that impact you and your experience?

Does your tutor have any teaching and/or assessing qualifications, and are they experienced at teaching or are they a commercial workshop that has a bit of spare bench space and a desire to improve their cash flow?

Is the teacher experienced in that subject area and has the facilities to teach it fully. In sharpening for example does the teacher demonstrate a wide variety of medium and have them available for you to use?

What facilities do they have - a good range of tools, machines or veneering equipment that is relevant to you and your own workshop?

Is the workshop in an easily accessible location with local amenities, and is there a range of accommodation nearby to suit your budget, if you wish to stay locally during your course.

Will you need to bring your own tools or will you be issued with your own quality toolkit (not shared workshop tools that never get looked after or kept sharp)?

Can you experience a range of tool types from different manufacturers that suit all budgets, and do they have good quality, well-maintained machines or at the other end of the scale, very expensive high production kit that you are never likely to use in your own workshop?

Does the tutor keep their teaching up to date, with new ideas and innovations and investigating new trends? Can they accommodate different learning styles?

How big is the workshop? Does it have separate areas for hand tool work, a machine shop and a separate classroom for design, or theory delivery? Will other workshop users interfere with your learning environment? Will you have your own bench and workspace and a good amount of room to spread yourself out? Is the workshop well lit and warm?

Is the workshop well managed and does it comply to all regulations, LEV, Fire safety, first aid trained staff, using ACOP and COSHH compliant? Do you think it is a professionally run workshop?

During the time you are in the workshop is there only one course running at a time, or are the tutors trying to deal with different subject areas and groups of students.

Is your course in a commercial workshop which also teaches, if so, what happens if a paying job runs over – how does this effect your learning experience?

If you ask a question, does the tutor have a wide range of experience to be able to answer it fully?

What materials will you be using - is it limited to softwoods like pine or will you be enjoying and learning about a whole range of quality hardwood timber products, glues and polishes.

Will the materials you use be dry and well selected for you? Or will your treasured course project warp, twist and fail through poor timber management.

Finally and probably most importantly, do you think you would enjoy being taught by the tutor i.e., do you want to spend forty hours with this person?

Cheers Peter

=D>


Are you sure you have covered everything Peter :wink: LOL

You made an important point regarding teaching qualifications, and that is a fair point because it is all to easy for a professional woodworker (Cabinet Maker, Joiner, Carpenter Boatbuilder etc) to say I can teach you a subject but the question is do they really know how to deliver the subject professionally? I think this is where teaching qualifications are extremely important because they provide evidence that the person delivering the course has a proven ability to do so. Teachers and lecturers in further and higher education take qualifications so that they are qualified to teach in Colleges etc, so here is the punchline that I've been dying to know what Teaching and Assessing qualifications have you gained Peter and where did you gained them?

Another quite important question: what qualification do your long term students gain at the end of their course, is it an in house qualification or is it an award by a nationally recognised organisation like the City & Guilds Institute?

I know I have put this question to you Peter but it is also equally put to the other course providers who have contributed on here so far if they wish to answer it.

Mark

Good and valid questions Mark

My teaching qualifications are that I have a C&G NVQ 3 Further and Adult Education Teachers Certificate 7306 and C&G NVQ Assessors Award TDLB D32/33 gained in the mid nineties.

I worked in further education for 8 years as a Course Leader with responsibilities for my fellow instructors and a technician. I had lecturing responsibilities on the BTEC National Diploma in Furniture Making and Design and various C&G Furniture Making qualifications. During this time I undertook a range of personal development courses in regards to Wood Machining and Health and Safety with the HSE, Student Mentoring and Tutorials and preparing for Ofsted :roll:

I do not offer any formal qualifications to my full time students at present, I have been there and done that, and resigned from the college system when teaching became obsessed with ticking boxes rather than making them

I did get in contact with Pro Skills earlier this year to see how the route to formal qualifications has developed and felt like I was entering a bureaucratic nightmare - Pro Skills has since closed down as the education sector tries to decide how they wish to proceed. As I understand it, FE will be losing more funding next year to make way for self-devised courses and apprenticeships, which is what was removed in 2002 when all courses had to fit within the European frame work - look out for the new broom :lol:

My students work towards our School Diploma based on the best parts of the old BTEC National Diploma I used to run. Sean Feeney also assesses this with me, over a series of projects including design, making and business studies. Sean has 7 Bespoke Guild Marks and has served twice on the judging committee for the Furniture Makers Company.

When I taught in FE I had a mix of young and mature students much the same as now. On occasions this led to issues with some mature students as they had no interest in taking exams but we needed the results for both funding and Ofsted inspections. These are issues I do not wish to deal with again as my main focus is the delivery of quality teaching to my fee paying students who join us for a variety of personal reasons.

Cheers Peter

 

[Jacob]

Spam

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Locking this thread now lest we forget the rules about commercial entities needing to pay for advertising! I appreciate the thread wasn't started by either of the entities in question but it has become a bill board so enough is enough.