Peter Seftons Machining Course

[ColeyS1]

I guess that's what's appealing working for somebody else, then setting up on your own after a few years of hands on experience,with there guidance

Coley

 

[RogerS]

I guess that's what's appealing working for somebody else, then setting up on your own after a few years of hands on experience,with there guidance

Coley

Or 'hands off' if you don't learn the safety aspects of using a spindle moulder

 

[Phil Pascoe]

It is still an awful lot of money. Do we know how many people would be on the course?

It's peanuts by IT standards. Computer training courses in London are 400 - 500 a day, and that's with up to 20 people in the classroom.

The people on the IT courses for one probably aren't paying their own way, and for two aren't going back to a £10 an hour job.
It may well be loose change to some of you, but it's still a lot of money if money's tight. That's it. That's all.

 

[ColeyS1]

The cost of setting up a machine shop isn't gonna be pennies though. Morticer, tenoner, tablesaw, perhaps ripsaw, planer thicknesser, spindle moulder, bandsaw etc. Compared to the price of all those machines, learning to use it safely and keep on using it safely = priceless.
One day off work injured, should be enough of an incentive to think it worth the £150.

Coley

 

[ColeyS1]

It makes me cringe thinking about using the ring fence for the first time, without somebody experienced keeping a watchful eye. Say if it starts kicking....argghhh, short grained bits flying everywhere, fingers missing

Coley

 

[graduate_owner]

I bought a Kity spindle moulder in a car boot sale a few years ago, complete with cutter block and some cutters, but no motor. I put a 1HP motor on - not ideal but all I had and I wanted to get things going. I watched the Roy Sutton video and did some reading up, and have since used the Kity for a number of small diy jobs without incident so far. I say without incident, but it is not without some trepidation - I can see why it commands respect from experienced users, and I only use it for straight work with the grain and the wood held firmly against the fences with Shaw guards in place. As far as the ring fence goes, I have one but have steered well clear of it. That looks seriously scary.

K

 

[Peter Sefton]

First of all what machinery training have you already under taken.

If you have only learnt from books and DVD's I would spend the money and go on the full 3 day course, you are looking at setting up a business after all.

All the employees we have here have to sign off they know what they are doing on each machine plus explain how they work, and also if they are not confident about something to speak up.

I am about to spent several thousand adding to the qualifications for my machinist and see it as an investment as well as covering my back with the HSE.

£450 to be shown how to use machines properly and be able ask questions as you go is a good deal, look at it as a break from work learning something you want to do.

You only have one set of fingers and things can go wrong very quickly if you do not know what you are doing.

We undertake both written and practical assessments on the three days to comply with the ACOPs and the students have a safe systems of work booklet to take away with them.

I get a mixture of students some weekend woodworkers who looking to buy machines and are keen to know what to look out for, some who already have machines but have tried at home and felt training would be a good idea. Some who realise we are not only undertaking safety trying but also seeing how accurate and productive the machines can be this means they get the most out of their investment. I have managers who need to know the regulations and employees who need training up to either supervise or update their training. Even Axi asked to send their employees on the course, not sure why.

I am not saying that three days makes up for a three year wood machining course but it does pull the key elements of over thirty years worth of experience of both making and teaching on a wide range of kit.

Cheers Peter

 

[Monkey Mark]

It is still an awful lot of money. Do we know how many people would be on the course?

It's peanuts by IT standards. Computer training courses in London are 400 - 500 a day, and that's with up to 20 people in the classroom.

The people on the IT courses for one probably aren't paying their own way, and for two aren't going back to a £10 an hour job.
It may well be loose change to some of you, but it's still a lot of money if money's tight. That's it. That's all.

Personally I can see exactly what you mean.

No doubting the knowledge that Peter has and may well impart and that it is great value for money. Nor that setting up and running a fully equipped shop is darn expensive.

But as someone who'm just scrapes by I can understand that it is still a lot of money to pull out in one go. If I was to pay £450 for a course, that would be my years treat all in one go.

It is still worth it, no doubting that, but it's not always that easy for some of us to make that jump.

 

[custard]

As far as the ring fence goes, I have one but have steered well clear of it. That looks seriously scary.

In a way that's another good argument for training. Many woodworkers won't ever need a ring fence, but if you're making things with curved or shaped components, like chairs, then a ring fence on a spindle moulder might well be your most used machine. You're right to be cautious about it, but used correctly it's an amazing device that doesn't really have an equivalent on a router table. It allows you to feather into and out of cuts, removing timber at just the right rate and in exactly the right spot.

But DIY ring fence training? No thanks. There are just too many little details and "gotchas" that all need to be exactly right before it's safe to spin the machine up.

Mind you, that's what separates a spindle moulder from most other woodworking machinery. It's not that any of it is rocket science, it's more that the pre-flight check list is so extensive and variable. On a typical power feed job for example there might be anywhere from a dozen to twenty or more items that all need to be checked off, every lever on the power feed needs torquing up, the tooling and guarding needs to be correctly set, if there's a false fence that needs checking. The list just goes on and on, and that's before you even think about where your hands need to be throughout the actual cut.

 

[tomatwark]

The point here is that Pollys13 is looking to set up a business.

Jobs will come along which will need knowledge and experience, as well as training.

Polys13 would be far better to spend some time and money in getting some training now, instead of waiting until Mrs Smith wants her front door yesterday and not knowing the correct way of doing it cuts a corner, sets up wrong and wonders why he has no fingers.

Yes, questions are asked on here about how to do things, but sometimes some of the advice given is not a safe as it should be and also in a business setting is illegal.

 

[tomatwark]

I was taught by a machinist with a lot of experience and the thing that was drummed into me and that I drum into my employees is to check and check again before switching on and if the machine does not sound the way it usually does turn it off and find out why.

When I am sitting in my office next to our machine shop and hear something I don't like the sound of, I will always go and see what is going on and to be fair to the lads the machine has generally stopped before I get there.

And as I have said already, if one of the lads is not comfortable with something do not run the machine ask for advice, and if they have not done something before get it checked.

 

[pollys13]

How much would it be worth not to have a severe accident on the spindle ? When I started as an apprentice, admittedly when pinned blocks weren't common, someone use to check the spindle was o.k everytime before turning it on. I think that lasted about two years before I was able to use it unsupervised. Even then they like it when there was atleast one other person around in the shop.
They really can be lethal things, even to an experienced user !
I hope you've got roller feed cause it makes the task much safer and efficient. How did you get on with the Axminster fence ? It'd be nice to have an update

Coley

The finger fences took ages to arrive from China not even put them on the fence. I got the spindle in January this year, have not even switched it on and am not intending too until I feel fully confident about using it safely and properly. The long finger fences are really neat but I feel a false fence might be more suitable at times.
Cheers Coley

 

[pollys13]

Uum...... OK guys thanks for the input, am mulling this over and looking at my bank balance. I'm thinking I'm going to have to reluctantly part with some cash..... tight git

 

[RogerS]

I'm not convinced about those finger fences. TBH I don't think that you can beat a proper false fence like this one (photo courtesy: Karl on WWUK)

 

[RogerS]

Uum...... OK guys thanks for the input, am mulling this over and looking at my bank balance. I'm thinking I'm going to have to reluctantly part with some cash..... tight git

You really won't regret it. I went on the one-day spindle moulder course even though I'd been using mine for a long time (safely). I specifically was after some tuition and guidance on using ring-fences etc and certainly got that. But along the way, there was a steady influx of new ideas, seeing things from a different (and better) perspective. Plus Peter is a damn nice bloke and always willing to answer any question regarding woodworking.

It's a nice part of the country as well ! But then I would say that, wouldn't I !!

 

[Wizard9999]

Late to the party on this one, but I would make a few points. If the course costs more than somebody can afford it doesn't matter how good it is. If this is not the case surely it becomes a question of the quality of the course against the cost, which adds up to value for money? The quality question will have both objective and subjective elements, but for me I would consider the following, in no particular order:
- the knowledge / experience of the person doing the training
- is the course pitched at the right level for what the prospective student needs
- is the syllabus a good fit, i.e. will it cover lots that is not relevant / that the student already knows
- how many people are on the course, in other words how much of the tutor's time will you get
- is the balance between theoretical and practical training a good fit
- where is the course run (travel and accommodation can add a lot to the cost of the course)

I hope that helps.

Terry.

 

[Eric The Viking]

I am struck by how inexpensive Peter's course is.

Way back in 2002 I did a week-long re-training course at the BBC's centre in Evesham. It was specialist, and intended to improve my job prospects after redundancy.

It cost me £2,000 (IIRC, plus VAT, too), and was 60% subsidised (approx.), so that's roughly £1,000/day per student. It was a course that needed a lot of resources (a manned TV studio), and a very small number of students, and couldn't realistically be done any other way.

I'll happily agree that's an extreme example, but any sort of professional training isn't cheap. Peter's seems to be pretty good value for money. Pay rates in the industry aren't his fault - the costs of running such a course are still there (for example, I'll bet his insurance isn't cheap!).

What's it really worth? To stay safe, to be able to ask questions immediately when they arise in your mind, to have your actual working practices checked and be quizzed yourself... you cannot get these things from videos or books.

I always read up on new activities, as much as I can. I am extremely careful around machine tools of all sorts, and pedantic about my router table. planer and circ. saws. And I ask questions here too. But I'm sure I still do things that are potentially dangerous, because I have big knowledge gaps and haven't (yet) had a serious accident. I also often don't get the results I'd like, probably again down to inexperience.

I'm in no doubt that human-based training courses are the best alternative. I have even developed computer-based training and interactive satellite TV training myself (in the computer industry, way back in the 1990s). At the time, we had all kinds of studies "proving" how it increased student knowledge retention, etc. The satellite stuff was good (but really expensive to do), as students could ask questions, in real time. But even so, it was obvious that face-to-face isn't going to be bettered any time soon, for anything involving a big element of practical work.

Peter's courses sound excellent value. Money comes and goes. Missing fingers are forever.

 

[tomatwark]

Late to the party on this one, but I would make a few points. If the course costs more than somebody can afford it doesn't matter how good it is. If this is not the case surely it becomes a question of the quality of the course against the cost, which adds up to value for money? The quality question will have both objective and subjective elements, but for me I would consider the following, in no particular order:
- the knowledge / experience of the person doing the training
- is the course pitched at the right level for what the prospective student needs
- is the syllabus a good fit, i.e. will it cover lots that is not relevant / that the student already knows
- how many people are on the course, in other words how much of the tutor's time will you get
- is the balance between theoretical and practical training a good fit
- where is the course run (travel and accommodation can add a lot to the cost of the course)

I hope that helps.

Terry.

I agree on some points, but remember he is setting up in business and the cost of £450 over the years, the savings he will make in time and cockups alone will more than cover costs, as he does not have the experience most of the rest of us on here who are self employed or run a business gain through an apprenticeship or working in the trade first.

 

[Wizard9999]

Late to the party on this one, but I would make a few points. If the course costs more than somebody can afford it doesn't matter how good it is. If this is not the case surely it becomes a question of the quality of the course against the cost, which adds up to value for money? The quality question will have both objective and subjective elements, but for me I would consider the following, in no particular order:
- the knowledge / experience of the person doing the training
- is the course pitched at the right level for what the prospective student needs
- is the syllabus a good fit, i.e. will it cover lots that is not relevant / that the student already knows
- how many people are on the course, in other words how much of the tutor's time will you get
- is the balance between theoretical and practical training a good fit
- where is the course run (travel and accommodation can add a lot to the cost of the course)

I hope that helps.

Terry.

I agree on some points, but remember he is setting up in business and the cost of £450 over the years, the savings he will make in time and Be wiser alone will more than cover costs, as he does not have the experience most of the rest of us on here who are self employed or run a business gain through an apprenticeship or working in the trade first.

I wasn't saying he should or shouldn't go on the course, I think the OP is best placed to determine that but others with experience of spindle moulders suggest he should. I do not own a spindle moulder so have no personal basis to form a judgement on. what I was trying to say was that in deciding if any course is worth the cost once you get past having the absolute amount of money required then you need to consider what you are getting for the money. If a course is essential and there is more than one course that meets the underlying need then you will want to determine which is the best value for money. Surely it is like comparing a number of quotes for any product or service somebody is looking to spend their money on?

Terry.

 

[tomatwark]

One of the problems with machinery training is the lack of courses, we have contract with an external training company to come and train in our workshop, as to do college course in machine woodworking in the North of the UK now, you have to either go to Leeds or Falkirk, unless there is a college I don't know of that still run the courses.

While Falkirk is only about 1 1/2 hours away it is still a real pain and an external company who can provide SVQ qualifications works well for us.

The sad thing is that most of the colleges have dropped courses like these as they cost to much to run due to the limits in the number of students each class is allowed to take against the cost of equipment, where as media studies and the like you get more bums on seats and make more money.