What table saw are you using out there ?

[CYC]

Hi everyone,
I just built a workshop in my back garden and now it's time to get real woodworking tools for it. My first buy shall be the table saw (of course). I am looking at getting the Elektrabeckum TKHS e/p 315 along with the same brand dust extractor.

Tell me if you have this table saw and how you find it?
Also I am interested to hear about all table saws available out there for about 500 to 600 euros (oh yeah I am in Ireland BTW, hence the Euro ). :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

My first buy shall be the table saw (of course).

Why of course? A lot of people would choose a bandsaw over a table saw. A table saw rips and crosscuts; that's it. A bandsaw does that, and tenons, dovetails, curves, resawing... Something to consider perhaps?

Cheers, Jester

 

[CYC]

This is a very interesting remark Jester. Are many of you woodworkers using the Bandsaw more than the table saw?

 

[Midnight]

My first buy shall be the table saw (of course).

Why of course? A lot of people would choose a bandsaw over a table saw. A table saw rips and crosscuts; that's it.

Jester..... whoever told you that table saws are limited to just ripping and cross cutting sold you a bill of goods. I can't say I've tried dovetails, but I know that if the need arose....it's possible. As for tennons, I've 5 bridle jointed raised panel doors in my living room, all made on the table saw. Add accurate mitre cuts, accurately dimensioning large sheet material, edge jointing, resawing, I could go on......
Table saws aren't the corner stone of a decent wood shop just because they're pretty.....
That's not to sat that bandsaws don't have their place too... personally.... if I'd the shop space I'd have both in a heart beat.

 

[CYC]

I got the table saw first. I did think about it and came to the conclusion that indeed the table saw SHOULD BE the first buy

 

[Anonymous]

Mike,

A bit of a contradiction in terms on your footnote 'Stay safe, have fun'
I would imagine if you managed to cut bridle joints and raised panels on a tablesaw, and you see dovetails having no inherent problem then you must have the guard off!
Edge jointing? That's a ripping cut. Dimensioning sheet materials? That's ripping or crosscutting.
Resawing? Again ripping, but deep ripping means two cuts, flipping the work to make a double depth of cut available, and not recommended.
Not wanting to put a downer on your posting, with the safety guards in place a table saw IS as Jester described, it's just how you phrase your cuts that make it different. Unless the guards are off.......
Mind you, both machines are invaluable in the workshop, it's down to both your own preference and what you need the tool to do predominantly that should swing your choice, but if you can afford both, then it's a bonus!

Andy

count your fingers before you start, if you've got the same amount at the end, the job's a good 'un!

 

[Gill]

Hi Mike

I'm certainly siding with Jester's sage advice on this one. Tablesaws are fine if you often cut large-ish panels in straight lines. If you need to do more than this you'll have to remove the guards whch, as Andy points out, is potentially risky. Should you ever get kickback whilst cutting a large panel without the guards, you risk a huge chunk of timber flying at you with incredible speed. That's something I've seen happen once and I'm not prepared to witness it twice! Moreover, a good table saw will take up a lot of floor space; you can save this space and get decent results cutting panels by running a circular saw along a straight edge if you'd rather not use a bandsaw for this. Mind, a decent bandsaw should have no problems with straight panel cuts.

Yours

Gill

 

[Noel]

Andy,

As you rightly elude to safety is of paramount importance in the workshop.On the subject of tablesaw joinery how do you feel about overhead guards? An example being:
http://www.rockler.com/findit.cfm?page=9991&sid=AF331
Obviously we are all (or should be) governed by common sense as well as the various Health + Safety regulations and good practice advice, would the overhead guard concept be acceptable in place of the normal crown guard? Or even safer considering that this type of guard offers a better view of the cut and more efficient dust collection?
Your thoughts would be appreciated.

Rgds

Noel

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Noel,

I used to see a lot of overhead guards on saws on (older Wadkins etc), and they seemed to be industry standard. The problem with them is that once they are set over the blade, the ones i've seen have to be adjusted using either a spanner or a winding gear to minimise the gap to suit the stock being cut, so tend to stay at one height!
The one in the link looks much better though as it is on a scissor assembly so needs to be just pulled down to suit. Try getting one of them in the UK though! The other thing is cutting sheets. The link one stands well away from the saw so shouldn't get in the way, but if you have one closer to the sawblade (one that bolt onto the table for instance) it minimises how wide you can rip.
The standard UK type guard fitted on the riving knife can be pushed down to the work easily, or and also drops down with the blade as you lower it for thinner stock.
To be honest, you don't really need to see all round the cut, simply feed it in a few millimetres, take it out and check the cut, if it's OK, then feed it through.
If I am ripping sawn stock for instance where it isn't always guaranteed that you have a straight reference face, I either over cut the size to allow plenty of cleaning up material to cover any discrepancies, or if I have the option, I'll try and face and edge it so that it sits true on the table so my cuts are more accutrate from the start.
Sheet materials don't suffer from this as you have straight edges to work from anyway. It's only if your fence isn't parallel that you have problems with either sheets or timber so the need to see all round the cut isn't really essential.
Dust collection is obviously important, but this is down to how close you position the guard over the work. I have used standard UK types that are efficient enough, but by no means perfect, but the more you can enclose the blade to create a vacuum to pull it away the better so an enclosed guard such as the link model is a better option.

Andy

 

[Noel]

Andy,

Thanks for your prompt reply. I have friends who have imported such devices but I intend to build one. I'll let you and others know how it turns out.

Rgds

Noel

 

[Anonymous]

Noel,

Just a thought,
If you fancy documenting how you make it, along with photos of the relevant stages we might be able to put it in the magazine.

Andy

 

[CYC]

Noelly, I am thinking, you could replicate the very simple system Elektra Beckum uses: The overhead guard is fixed to the ripping blade. This way when you lower or raise the blade the overhead guard stays at the same level above the blade.

This is what I have on the PKF 255. Look at it there:
http://www.elektrabeckum.co.uk/ebdaten/ ... 41d_01.jpg

 

[Midnight]

A bit of a contradiction in terms on your footnote 'Stay safe, have fun'

Your criticism implies that the two terms are contradictory. If that’s how you feel I’d suggest working with machinery of ANY kind isn’t for you. I thoroughly plan every stage of every cutting and milling operation, occasionally rehearsing if I deem it necessary. If at any stage I’m not completely satisfied that it’s safe, I find another way to do it. I put safety first and foremost, I also enjoy what I’m doing.

I would imagine if you managed to cut bridle joints and raised panels on a tablesaw, and you see dovetails having no inherent problem then you must have the guard off!

Your reaction implies that you assume I have a cavalier attitude towards safety; read above, I didn’t choose that footnote because it sounded good. With a well thought out jig that rides my fence (a 4x2” length of ¼” wall aluminium box section), the panel butted against the jig’s back stop and clamped securely, raising the panels was straight forward. Multiple passes, adjusting the blade height and pitch to suit the profile being machined. With the nozzle of the shop vac taped in place just to the right of the blade, all the offcuts were sucked out of harms way before they could cause any harm.

As for working without the guard, for me, that isn’t an option. The supplied guard failed mechanically in such a way that it couldn’t be repaired or reworked into a “fit for purpose” condition. This post isn’t the place for me to give my opinion of the manufacturers build quality or material choices. As this happened within weeks of receiving the machine, I’ve effectively learned how to work with the saw knowing full well the implications if something goes wrong. I take pains to ensure that every operation carried out on the tool is as safe as I can make it. Amateur I may be, idiot I’m not. Whenever possible I use a shop built guard fixed to the fence; a counter balanced, cantilevered design that encloses the blade as far as possible without impeding the capability of the saw. It’s no harder to adjust than an old angle poise lamp. This guard is replaced with a large feather board and sacrificial fence when milling a rebate.

BTW, the safe way to make double cuts in a piece you’re Resawing is not to make the second cut a through cut, leaving you with an H section piece. The remaining material can be cut through with a hand saw before cleaning the cut faces using whatever method you prefer. Jigs for this operation are a horizontal feather board clamped to the in-feed side of the saw bed to keep the piece tight to the fence and a shop built push stick. A riving knife set fractionally lower than the height of the blade helps reduce the chance of the pieces burning.

 

[Midnight]

Hi Mike

I'm certainly siding with Jester's sage advice on this one. Tablesaws are fine if you often cut large-ish panels in straight lines. If you need to do more than this you'll have to remove the guards whch, as Andy points out, is potentially risky. Should you ever get kickback whilst cutting a large panel without the guards, you risk a huge chunk of timber flying at you with incredible speed. That's something I've seen happen once and I'm not prepared to witness it twice! Moreover, a good table saw will take up a lot of floor space; you can save this space and get decent results cutting panels by running a circular saw along a straight edge if you'd rather not use a bandsaw for this. Mind, a decent bandsaw should have no problems with straight panel cuts.

Yours

Gill

Hi Gill....
I totally agree with you... there's nothing more effective than kickback for changing the colour of your underwear. However, a correctly sized and set up riving knife will all but eliminate the chance of this happening. Likewise, I agree with you re using a hand held circular saw for working with fill sized sheets in a small shop; a practice I employ regularly to cut sheets to approximate size before dimensioning them properly on the table saw.

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Mike,

Sorry if I offended you with my posting, I certainly never elude to any woodworker as an 'idiot', but if you feel that is what I was implying, I apologise.
Your initial posting gave me the impression that you saw no reason why a tablesaw couldn't do more than standard ripping etc, but with no indication of auxillary safety equipment fitted then I made the assumption that it was a 'Norm' type operation. I posted as a backup to Jester, who I know takes safety very seriously, and as part of my own job, so do I, and I post accordingly.
As you have now indicated your own safety procedures, and you are happy with them then some of your uses of the saw may seem more practical, but I always have reservations about any tablesaw used beyond its designed purpose.
I strongly disagree with your statment regarding how to double deep rip though. Whether the blade penetrates over half way or runs shy of it, this method of cutting is one of the most dangerous practises you could ever attempt on a saw, even with tunnel guards. I've seen plenty of moments where poor sawing techniques end in disaster, luckily enough none with serious consequences.
But i've seen this ripping technique employed on quite a few occasions on industrial rated machines, far better equipment than the cheap chinese stuff that abounds in the budget market in the UK, and when things start to go wrong, it happens quickly. A binding timber, closing around a blade because the riving knive can't work properly throws work quicker than you imagine. I've seen 'belt and braces' clamped on 'guards' to keep the timber against both bed and fence ripped away from the saw as the timber gets thrown up and back by the machine, ending up 20 feet away.
Having been in the professional environment for 25 years, I don't feel I am speaking out of turn by pointing out any inherent dangers I may see.
I merely look to inform any reader of either the publication I work for, or the postings I submit that although you may never have had an accident doing what you consider safe at the moment, may come back to haunt you.
This is why, despite the 'Nanny state' (to quote a few people I have spoken with) we live in, the tablesaw is the one machine I always give the upmost respect to.
Andy

 

[Scrit]

I've watched this discussion with interest and I'd like to add my comments -

Gill

Like you I am very much in favour of the bandsaw and with good setting up and decent blades I reckon they are more versatile than the table saw - safer, too, because being down cutting kickbacks are highly unlikely, but I think that using them for larger straight panel cuts is probably asking too much for machines with such small tables (8 x 4ft, anyone?).

Noel/Andy

The overhead guard concept is certainly acceptable by the HSE as evidenced by the number of panel saws fitted with them as original equipment, e.g. Altendorf, Martin, Panhans, Felder, etc. The more modern ones don't require any tools to reset them, most of those I've used or seen are on a friction-lock parallelogram-type fitting. With clear acrylic (Perspex) hoods they are both good for visibility and safe to use. They do, however, require support either on a long support arm (normally bolted across the back of the machine under the table with the upright 5 to 6ft to the right of the blade) or to be hung from the ceiling (hardly a good choice if your kit is moved regularly).

Midnight

It is possible to obtain effective replacement riving knives and crown guards for most machines. If you are in the market you might like to try Scott & Sargent http://www.machines4wood.com/index..../3e239bf-db67fcb4-484e-4882-b65e-cb74e66c3d33 (sorry for the long link) as they do sell that sort of stuff

Scrit

Still counting to ten WITHOUT removing his socks!

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Scrit,

I haven't used the parallelogram type operation guards but they do seem more logical when it comes to getting the operative to use them properly. The only problem I can see is when the blade is tilted. The bolt on riving knife type tilts with the blade but the overhead one needs a bit more consideration. Do these type adjust accordingly?

Andy

 

[Scrit]

Hi Andy

My Altendorf came with two clip/screw-on acrylic hoods, a narrow one for vertical cuts (the majority of cuts I'll have to say) and a wider one to accommodate the blade when canted over. Both have rollers front and rear to reduce marking on the work. The Altendorf design of the 1980s has been widely copied by everyone from Casadei to Wadkin, so they must have got it right. I have to say I'm not over-impressed with the dust extraction above table, but that is down to a restrictive exhaust at the top of the hood - a problem now cured on the latest (post 2001) Alts with a new hood design.

Scrit

 

[Midnight]

Andy..
First things first… no need to apologise… Your post fell a long way short of offending me. Pushed a few buttons, granted, but it takes a hellova lot more than that to offend me…
Re double deep ripping.. I DO take your point on board.. it reinforces my own risk assessment prior to the few times I’ve tried it for myself. While I recognise the dangers you’re pointing out, to date I’ve managed to negate them through EXTREMELY fussy stock selection. I make a point of only using quarter sawn stock in any project. When milling tennons, bridle joints or indeed resawing, I go one stage further by making sure the sticks being milled are from boards that have proven to be stable. To date, test cutting boards has prevented at least a half dozen potentially ugly incidents.
Forgive me if I waffle a bit here… but I feel there’s a need to draw another point from what you’ve said. I’m not a gambling man by any stretch of the imagination, but I’d be willing to bet that all the incidents you outlined to in your post took place in either a commercial or industrial shop. A shop where operatives felt a pressure to meet a deadline; where keeping overheads to a minimum may have resulted in less than optimum stock being used for any particular task. I’m familiar with the exact same pressures, but not… and I STRESS NOT in MY workshop. Cabinet making, for me is a hobby, something to challenge both my physical abilities to turn my hand to a new skill or technique, and challenge my mind, creating designs to meet a requirement, creating jigs to hold a piece of stock to enable one or another process. It is NOT an environment where I feel pressured into meeting deadlines. If for any reason I’m unhappy that I’M physically or mentally able to focus entirely on the task at hand, I walk away, close the shop door and go do something else instead. I understand FULL WELL what can happen with a second’s lapse in concentration. I apply the same stipulations to my stock selection. I ONLY buy kiln dried quarter sawn locally grown and produced hardwoods, NOT for any kind of snobbery, far from it. Simply because it’s the most stable stock I can get my hands on. I stand to loose too much if apiece of stock is used for a process it’s not ideally suited for.

Like I said above.. I DO take the point you’re making onboard, and I applaud your efforts to teach an appreciation of how quickly things can go wrong, and it’s consequences when working with machinery. However, rightly or wrongly, I honestly feel that permanently handicapping an extremely versatile piece of machinery by the permanent fitting of an improperly thought out guard system has more than a passing resemblance to shooting ALL horses larger than a Shetland pony simply because riders occasionally get hurt.
Safety is a subject I feel passionately about, not simply because it’s in my own best interests, but because every instinct I have tells me that the current “fashion” in legislation to slap arbitratory bans on machines, tools or practices is just plain wrong. Legislating in a manor that treats hands on operatives as if they had the IQ of your average pot plant is to my mind, utterly deplorable. IT HAS to mean more than simply taking the lowest cost option out of a problem. I already carry a permanent daily reminder of the consequences of half ass’d solutions to a problem; there HAS to be a better way.

Last point… I’ll make a deal with you… I’ll accept your apology unreservedly… if you’ll accept mine…. Writing anything before first regaining control of my temper is something I shoulda known better than to do…. I apologise unconditionally…

Wiggling all eight fingers and both thumbs…. For test purposes…

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Mike,
Apologies all round then
I can fill you in on the details with the deep ripping scenario, it was in a professional setup, but each time it was seen as the 'easy' option to convert the timber, and to also save timber. Both occasions I saw it happen it was a decision taken on the part of the woodworker, not under any stress from management or time constraints. I have since pointed out the inherent dangers to anyone who wants to attempt it, but whether they take it on board or not is up to them. (Not a dig at you!)
You are an exception to the rule with your methods and choice of timber, as you say, the choice of stable timber stock minimises any dangers, but care still needs to be taken.
What does perturb me is safety in general. In the pro market you cannot operate any machinery nowadays unless you have had formal training to do so, and all the guards have to be in place. With no training or experience to pull upon, the amateur can get hold of the equivelent machines, smaller and not so well made in some cases, but still capable of inflicting equally horrific injuries, and subsequently take the guards of and try out things on TV shows that are glibly badged with a 'guard removed for photography' legend.
OK, but put the guards on and you can't do most of the work shown, and an amateur with very little knowledge may find that they now have 'fingers removed for posterity' to consider.
Don't get me wrong, there are tradesmen who are very gung ho in their attitude, but in theory should have a good basic knowledge of the tools they are using, but a complete novice can try a similar method and live to regret it. This isn't to say that there aren't quite a few pro's out there missing the odd digit or two......
I suppose it's like any hobby thing though, some people are very adept and skilful and can turn their hands to anything, others have no end of trouble, but still enjoy it. But with danger lurking, safety has to be paramount.
cheers
Andy