What hand saws does this beginner need

[stubtoe]

Hi,

Nearly got my basic woodworking tool collection complete (e.g. basic hand tools, planes, cramps, measuring tools etc), but just need to complete it with hand saws so that I can start the numerous projects I've got lined up.

So having looked through the Axminister catelogue and done the normal Google searches I'm now more confused about what hand saws I need than when I started! #-o

Basically this is the brief I set myself for purchasing a hand saw(s):

- General, accurate,cutting/ripping i.e. where a panel saw won't do
- Cutting tenons/dovetails on timber up to 4x4, 8x2, 2x2 etc
- Cutting tenons/dovetails on smaller projects
- Budget of approx. £30 to £40

And these are the questions I have:

1. Can I get away with a single good quality tenon saw, or do I need a tenon and a dovetail/gents saw?
2. What size (length/depth) saw(s) do I need?
3. Do I really need separate cross-cut and ripping saws?
4. What TPI do I need on the saws?
5. Should I be considering going down the Japanese route (and if so can some explain the nomenclature of Japanese hand saws I can't get my head around them!)?
6. Any specific saw/brand recommendations based on all of the above?

Apologies if my questions are a bit muddled up, but hopefully you'll get the jist of what I'm asking.

Cheers,

Jonny

P.S. Mightily impressed with the help and suggestions I've received so far from this forum - makes it so much easier for someone like me starting out. Thanks! =D>

 

[Fat ferret]

I manage ok, I think :? with 5 saws,

14" Tenon saw, 12tpi, for doors and gates.
12" Tenon saw, 15tpi, for occasional furniture.
8" Dovetail saw, 16tpi, for details and cutting slots in tenons for wedges.
20" Panel saw, 10tpi for ply, dont often use this.
And a big 26" rip saw 6tpi for riping boards.

But I prefer finer teeth to what others seem to. I use old saws and re-sharpen them to suit my work, sheffield made saws are generally good as are older disstons.

 

[condeesteso]

Good question and will stimulate plenty of views I suspect. You don't really say what you plan to make, and that will influence choice. My own view is go steady, see what works and what you need etc, then invest more later.
At the bottom (price-wise) the Bahco saws in DIY stores have amazing blades on them - the Japanese=style pull saws which are cross cut... about £7 and really very good as a starter.
The Japanese pull-saws (both cross-cut and rip) are highly rated by many and quite affordable (say £25 - 30 each).
The Veritas dovetail, tenon etc are also rated very highly (around £50). Above that the world is tasty. But you first need to develop the kind of work you want to do, then decide on the bigger investment tools I think.
re vintage / second-hand: some absolute beauties out there, but all need re-sharpening, and usually totally re-profiling. There aren't lots of people around that can do that well so bear that in mind - the £5 boot-fair gem will probably cost £30+ to get a decent tune-up, as it is a slow manual process. Again, I'd say start with a few (3 maybe) and invest more as you get to know what it is you really need.
But respect indeed for going the hand-saw route.

 

[selly]

No need to make it too complicated.

A bahco saw and a jack saw from the builders merchant will set you right. no need to spend money on toys.

 

[Crooked Tree]

It sounds like you are asking what is the minimum consistent with not being a pain. I would go with the suggestion of the older text books (e.g. Hayward) and start with a single hand saw and a single back saw.

For the handsaw there is plenty of choice of new hardpoint saws from most places, most of which will be ~ 11tpi and fine for cross cutting and some ripping at lower speed.

For the back saw a tenon saw ~12" long, ~12 - 14 tpi, cross cut teeth, should be fine. This will cut with and across the grain (general purpose) and will be capable of cutting dovetails fine, even relatively small ones.

This is pretty much what I use. The handsaw is a Stanley "jetcut", the tenon saw Lynx brand, both fine. I also have a 6tpi rip handsaw and a rip cut tenon saw, both of which are nice to have and quicker than using a cross-cut saw but not necessary by any means, particularly if you have power saws to do most of the hard work.

 

[alan2001]

Hi,

Nearly got my basic woodworking tool collection complete (e.g. basic hand tools, planes, cramps, measuring tools etc), but just need to complete it with hand saws so that I can start the numerous projects I've got lined up.

heh, even people that don't like woodworking usually have a saw somewhere!

i also asked some beginner's saw questions here recently and learned a lot: my-saws-warning-stupid-question-t53309.html

at present i am still in the process of trying to cut a straight line.

 

[matthewwh]

Sawing is a big topic, so I'll try to keep to the basics.

Wood is made of long tubular fibres, if you are cutting along the grain they tend to form continuous ribbon like shavings so plenty of gullet space (the fresh air between the teeth where the shavings collect) is critical. Rip teeth are sharp on the bottom edge and act like a series of little planes.

When crosscutting you need to slice across the fibres so crosscut teeth are sharp on the sides and pointed on the ends, like 2 rows of knives. With these you get sawdust so you can go a little bit finer. Yes, you need both types.

Toothing wise, as a rough guide you want between 3 and 12 teeth engaged in the timber, so a 12 tpi saw has a working range of 1/4" to 1" thick, like many I tend to lean towards the finer end of this spectrum.

Japanese saws: 3 basic types and all the others are a subset of one of these.

Ryoba = double edged saw (usually rip on one side and crosscut on the other. If I had to make do with only one saw this one would be it.

Dozuki = back saw, very thin blade for fine work.

Kataba = single edged saw without a back for deeper cuts and panels.

Hope this helps!

 

[Jason Pettitt]

Blimey.

The less obvious answer would be to go all strange and continental and use bow-saws.

Why won't a panel saw do? If it's not beefy enough then you need something bigger and with less than 10 tpi. If the panel saw is too crude then it's time to switch to hand planes set to take a fairly thick cut.

 

[stubtoe]

Again, many thanks for all the replys and suggestions.

To clarify my original post, the projects I have in mind are workbench, saw horses, tool board, chopping board.

So taking all the above into account and to keep things as simple/cheap as possible I think I'll go for a bahco panel saw and a general purpose tenon saw (12", 14tpi) or ryoba. Those should do me for now.

Are there any tenon saws available in B&Q etc that would suit my purposes or do I need to spend a bit more and get one from somewhere like axminster?

Cheers,

Jonny

 

[AndyT]

I think this is a sensible approach for a beginner. The hardest thing is to learn with a blunt saw and by choosing the modern hardpoint option you will at least have sharp teeth. These saws are very good value for occasional use and excellent for glue-heavy man made boards. The better handsaws such as some of the Bahcos have teeth sharpened to work well in both cross and rip cuts.

Looking at websites, B&Q and Axminster both sell the Stanley Fatmax tenon saw (cheaper at Axi) which looks fine to me as a single compromise backsaw.

Of course, if you really get stuck into woodwork, you will start to see that these tools are a bit crude, with sweaty plastic handles and thickish non-tapered blades, and then you might want to get into older, more carefully made saws - but that's not where I would want to start.

 

[No skills]

This is a pretty handy thread as I've been considering the same questions myself the last few weeks.

I was going to probably get a large stanley or bahco for ripping, for a tenon I was considering spending a bit and getting something nice - not sure what but I just have a thing for good looking tenon saws I am also going to get a new double sided japanese saw (ryoba if I am understanding correctly) - I have had a couple of them over the years and they have been very handy.

jmo

 

[Mark A]

I've got the Stanley fatmax tenon saw and I don't like it - it's sometimes difficult to start the cut with and it tears the fibres as the kerf is wide, which isn't very good for accuracy. Maybe it's just me though.

I prefer to use my £4 Wickes tenon saw for detailed work as the kerf is narrow and is easy to start the cut with. I've never used a fancy handsaw so can't compare.

 

[condeesteso]

I think there is a bit of consensus here - in that you don't need many (2 or 3) in the beginning, and can add later. Also, the DIY store saws are frankly rediculous... I mean very good indeed, for the money.
I mentioned Bahco as I have used them. I have a seven quid 'tenon' cross-cut that has a super-fine kerf and is close to matching the Japanese Duzoki. Yes, the handles are plastic, and the spine on the Bahco I have is a bit flexible, but the sheer blade quality you get for under a tenner is amazing.
So, basically, I'd get on down to B&Q (or similar) and actually handle some... I suspect £25 would get you 3 and set you well on the way. Try and get one rip-set for cutting along grain.
Then a little later, you may fancy one of these (Two Lawyers) =D>

 

[AndyT]

Another thought on the cheap modern tenon saws - the ones I have handled have all been quite light weight, which means you need to bear down on the saw, which is difficult with a plastic handle, and is poor technique any way. I got some improvement on one once by simply wrapping a bit of scrap lead flashing around the steel back and tapping it into place.