Waterstones, Guides, Diamond Stones many old new questions.

[Schtoo]

On the link, I'm very touchy about it at the moment.

Forum rules sticky at the top of the board - you're allowed without need of questionnaire or protection money.

Well, since you won't quit...

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com is me.

That'll take you to the 'place holder' page I threw up last night, but links off my blog and store as well. Blog has a few things in it that might be of interest, the store has more things that are of interest like the previously hinted to ceramic type waterstones.

Happy now?

 

[woodbloke]

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com is me.

Thanks Stu, now bookmarked - Rob

 

[Jacob]

It does make one wonder how some of the fine furniture was made 300 yrs ago without all this stuff / options or does 300 yrs of 'patina' hide the odd bit of torn grain anyway!

S

Sharpening wasn't a problem in the past. All this modern kit, jigs and bevel mania just gets in the way. Stick to one or two oil stones IMHO. And a pile of rags.
Or if in Japan, do as the romans do. No need to bring waterstones here - we don't need them.

 

[Schtoo]

Sharpening wasn't a problem in the past. All this modern kit, jigs and bevel mania just gets in the way. Stick to one or two oil stones IMHO. And a pile of rags.
Or if in Japan, do as the romans do. No need to bring waterstones here - we don't need them.

You know, every decent craftsperson I've ever met cares less about where the tool came from than whether it gets the job done.

Waterstones, and on the whole, Japanese tools do get the job done. Maybe in a different manner, but they get the job done.

To avoid anything Japanese for your own reasons is fine, I'm not even going to attempt to change that.

To advocate that nobody else should touch them because of those reasons means robbing others of the opportunity of adding something to the arsenal of tools they have in which to get the job done.

And that would horrify every single decent craftsperson who's ever drawn breath, and will ever draw breath. You never EVER miss an opportunity to make your task easier, faster or better.

Stu.

(Who's never 'gone native' here in Japan, and never will. Won't even let my kids go that far...)

 

[Jacob]

......
To avoid anything Japanese for your own reasons is fine,

I wouldn't dream of advocating the avoidance of anything Japanese per se.

...opportunity of adding something to the arsenal of tools they have in which to get the job done.

Too many opportunities, too many choices, keep it simple, don't buy tools you don't really need!

...

(Who's never 'gone native' here in Japan, and never will. Won't even let my kids go that far...)

Why on earth not? I'd have a go if I was living there.

 

[Schtoo]

Gone native as in "living completely like a Japanese person".

Not that way, gutter dweller...

(I don't kiss and tell either.)

Surprisingly common for folks who end up here, they jump into living as a Japanese person completely and I can't see the logic in that. Also a lot of folks jump on the Japanese tool bandwagon, and I cannot even manage that. I'm odd here I suppose.

 

[bugbear]

Sharpening wasn't a problem in the past.

So you keep asserting.

Courtesy of google books it's now possible to read old periodicals, and the letters/discussion columns are fascinating.

You may be surprised to learn that such arenas have always had discussions on the pros/cons of variations in sharpening, for as long as they have existed!

I see no reason to suppose that such conversations didn't didn't exist prior to recorded forums for them, although this is, by definition, rather harder to prove.

BugBear

 

[Trizza]

IMO, try a few systems if you can and find one that you seem to get along well with, then invest in that. You can get a good edge in zillions of different ways, so don't focus so much on whats best - focus on what you find works for you! Options vary from miniscule investment to massive investment, with plenty of good options in the whole price range.

Sharpening wasn't a problem in the past.

It most certainly was a problem in the past. My grandfather was a professional carpenter & shipbuilder back before machine tools took over and I remember how lovingly he talked about his finest stones - moreso than any of his other tools. He would reminisce at length about how long he'd saved up to afford his finest Arkansas stone - instead of buying fuel for heating & cooking he scrounged coal from train tracks. He would leave his tools at the shipyard or construction site, but he would always take his stones home. Woodworkers jealously guarded their stones and would forgo buying new tools so that they could afford better stones. He spent most of the first year of his apprenticeship learning to sharpen. He kept a strop handy for when he was working on local woods (I'm Australian, so tough stuff like Jarrah). He showed me a drawer full of bits of stones that he'd tried from all over the world, trying to find a way to get the keenest edge in the least amount of time. They took sharpening every bit as seriously as modern woodworkers - perhaps more! I daresay the old-timers would be green with envy if they saw the sheer variety of methods we have available these days.

 

[woodbloke]

In Toshio Odate's book on Japanese tools, he also mentions the extreme care to which they went to look after their waterstones - Rob

 

[Jacob]

Sharpening wasn't a problem in the past.

....... He showed me a drawer full of bits of stones that he'd tried from all over the world, trying to find a way to get the keenest edge in the least amount of time. They took sharpening every bit as seriously as modern woodworkers - .....

He may well have had a bit of an obsession about stones, but his basic technique (and just about everybody else's since the beginning of time) with straight chisels and plane blades, would have been freehand on stones (with the occasional dab on a powered grindstone, if available), and he would have never heard of "micro-bevels" and probably never seen or used a jig.
I don't suppose his work suffered by being deprived of the benefits of modern crazy sharpening practices.

 

[Trizza]

He may well have had a bit of an obsession about stones, but his basic technique (and just about everybody else's since the beginning of time) with straight chisels and plane blades, would have been freehand on stones (with the occasional dab on a powered grindstone, if available), and he would have never heard of "micro-bevels" and probably never seen or used a jig.
I don't suppose his work suffered by being deprived of the benefits of modern crazy sharpening practices.

The old timers would certainly have used the best tools available that they got along well with and could afford. Their work may not have "suffered" from not having modern tools & techniques, but having improved steels and stones and honing techniques may well have made their life easier, and they certainly would have used them if they were available back then. Having improved techniques and technology now doesn't mean we shouldn't use them, which appears to be what you're suggesting in a rather hyperbolic manner.

 

[bugbear]

... just about everybody else's since the beginning of time) with straight chisels and plane blades, would have been freehand on stones

You should read some tool history before making another of your sweeping and wrong generalisations.

Moxon speaks of the stone being in one hand, and the iron in the other, more like we currently sharpen a bill hook or scythe, and nothing like the later sharpening of woodwork tools on bench mounted stones.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

... just about everybody else's since the beginning of time) with straight chisels and plane blades, would have been freehand on stones

You should read some tool history before making another of your sweeping and wrong generalisations.

Moxon speaks of the stone being in one hand, and the iron in the other, more like we currently sharpen a bill hook or scythe, ....
BugBear

Sounds like freehand without a jig, just as I suspected.

 

[bugbear]

... just about everybody else's since the beginning of time) with straight chisels and plane blades, would have been freehand on stones

You should read some tool history before making another of your sweeping and wrong generalisations.

Moxon speaks of the stone being in one hand, and the iron in the other, more like we currently sharpen a bill hook or scythe, ....
BugBear

Sounds like freehand without a jig, just as I suspected.

I suppose if you're determined to deliberately misunderstand, there's no point trying to debate.

Thread ends.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

You should read some tool history before making another of your sweeping and wrong generalisations.

Moxon speaks of the stone being in one hand, and the iron in the other, more like we currently sharpen a bill hook or scythe, ....
BugBear

Sounds like freehand without a jig, just as I suspected.

I suppose if you're determined to deliberately misunderstand, there's no point trying to debate.

Thread ends.

BugBear

Is Moxon speaking of the crazy sharpening one true way (i.e. using a jig to form a 30º micro-bevel on a bevel ground at 25º on an extremely flat medium) or is he not?
I say not - it reads more like a slapdash freehand business of the sort I favour.
What have I misunderstood?

 

[Chems]

This is why searching for decent advice on sharpening is useless on this forum as you get members like Jacob coming in an derailing it failing to realize that still nobody cares about his opinion.

 

[Paul Chapman]

This is why searching for decent advice on sharpening is useless on this forum as you get members like Jacob coming in an derailing it failing to realize that still nobody cares about his opinion.

That's why a lot of people don't post much on here these days - it all gets a bit pointless once he starts his same old stuff. You'd think even Jacob would get fed up with the sound of his own voice but I suppose he's got more stamina than the rest of us.........

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Alf]

Kids, given there's an option to ignore individual members now, why not use it? :-s

So, Chems, where've you got to now with your quest? I may have lost track.

 

[Paul Chapman]

Kids, given there's an option to ignore individual members now, why not use it? :-s

Because it doesn't deal with the problem that Chems was complaining about - that some members habitually and deliberately derail many of the hand tool threads.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[woodbloke]

Kids, given there's an option to ignore individual members now, why not use it? :-s

As I do...saves a lot of angst. The particular member in question has been banned from Tom's site (The Wood Haven) for the same reasons as have been mentioned earlier. Perhaps it's time to take the same action here...again!!
As others have said, most of the time, it's just a continual diatribe of meaningless drivel which is overtly obstructive rather than helpful. I can see why some members are ceasing to post here - Rob