Wardrobe ballpark price per linear metre

[johnnyb]

I'd check your prices on 4 drawers. 4 undermentioned runners are £50 each. am always shocked at the amount of wood that goes into a drawer box the a sheet of mdf for the bottoms. spraying with lacquer. dovetailing. four drawers in a day? maybe if that's all you ever do with materials in stock.

 

[johnnyb]

https://www.ironmongerydirect.co.uk...ner-double-extension-500mm-length-40kg-297843

 

[johnnyb]

if there 1m wide you'd need 15 linear metres of prime oak etc etc

 

[Kayen]

https://www.solmer.co.uk/concealed-...motion-full-extension-drawer-runner-40kg.html
£33.50 inc. VAT from where I buy them - free delivery over £100.

I use 13mm veneered MDF sides and 9mm veneered MDF bottoms all of which I pre-spray with 2k lacquer before cutting to size and gluing up. It makes the cleanup easy and once installed in an 18mm MFC cabinet they stay in there, they don't have to be taken out, stripped down, and then reassembled and reinstalled.

 

[johnnyb]

fair does that would be loads quicker. but not really the same product. I'm guessing you edge band the raw mdf. how is it jointed?
I've even seen brown mdf used and sprayed with tinted lacquer. pine as well dovetailed at the front nailed at the back! I'm not loosing sight of the fact most people want cheap(er). this is a legit way of keeping costs ok. there are cheaper undermounted runners. (£15 a pair) as well. I guess it's all about making something more in reach. the steel sided blum range of drawers are nice( just make the bottom)
don't forget with many wardrobes an extra pair of hands is needed on fitting.

 

[johnnyb]

I made some that were cheaper using birch ply and cheapo side mounted runners.

 

[Kayen]

I find that they buy whatever I show them - and they usually love my drawer boxes and I find the most important factor is that they softly self-close. Hand on heart, I don't think anyone can produce anything better than I can - a solid wood side doesn't make the drawer any better and dovetails are obsolete if coupled with a metal runner - of course just my opinion, and I accept that you and many others might differ.

I did a job about three years ago - 32 drawers, 24 of which were on the £15 runners you mention - I was back there last week measuring for another job and they were all perfectly fine. I think they're rated at 30kg which is still plenty. You can only do this job if you have a deep love for it, and I think we sometimes talk ourselves into making the job better than what we are being paid for. The job I did should have been £34k but he wouldn't budge above £30k - so I made him buy the lighting and saved some on the runners

 

[johnnyb]

lovely work

 

[johnnyb]

do you outsource any parts?

 

[ChrisWiduWood]

How do they know you're adding a 20% mark up to your materials? It's none of their business, really. All that should matter is the price for the completed job. You can break down costs for components, e.g., for a cabinet with a nest of drawers as opposed to a cabinet of the same dimensions with just a shelf and a door, but I can't see any good reason to identify and separate out your material costs and mark up on those materials. Slainte.

Hey, i come from a poor working class background (and am still poor working class ) and i was brought up to be too honest and i wear my heart on my sleeve, I got into carpentry/joinery because I'm strong with my arm but soft in the head and i admit i most definitely give away too much.

Id love to be a ruthless business man and make other souls like myself do all the work while i count the cash, but I'm still struggling from converting from the subcontractor i was on a 'day rate' to charging labour/materials/overheads/profit/plus more on every job
My work is not the problem, I've made many a man rich from my hands, i just struggle to do it for myself. its a costly lesson that comments like your's do help to toughen me up.

sláinte agatsa

 

[RobinBHM]

You're giving away a lot of profit there. If you go about it the right way you can easily make 4 drawers in a day at a materials cost of less than £300 (including under-mount runners), that's an extra £500 for a day's work. I believe there are two main things that equate to success in this business - finding the right clients (if you're selling four drawers for £1080 it seems you've achieved that) and efficiency by refining your processes - which includes what you outsource and what you make, amongst many other things.

I’m not sure I agree, Probox drawers are solid timber, dovetailed, sanded and pre finished.

Probox use CBC dovetailing so tail widths are variable so no dodgy bits at top.

I ran a joinery shop and tried both ways: making drawers in house wasn’t cheaper.

 

[Wattsjoinerybarn]

Sounds like we're in the same boat at the moment.
The big trouble with me is that ive been working for years with developers/builders repeat work and not usually dealing direct with the client, i started pricing the same as when i was subbing, and quickly learnt i was way under, so now im just building up the confidence to charge more ( inline with what the bigger developers where charging) and not feeling bad about it.

Sometimes i feel like customers get upset when they know im marking things up, like its ok for a banker to make millions, a salesman to make bonuses, but a tradesman adding 20% to materials is robbery!

Cheers

Yeah. Tbh it’s I am finding it tough at the minute as mdf etc is so high In cost and tbh not great in quality. On the odd occasion I have been a sheet of two short and topped up with a lower quality. The difference was not noticeable once I was done and the data sheets don’t suggest any more movement! Possible the way forward with bedroom stuff providing you have the right paint setup!

I personally believe I have made my self more valuable with offering the drawing package and leafing sketch up to a good standard as it means I a can adjust drawing a very easily and then use them for cultists etc. refining other areas of the business always happens as you learn as you go but the drawing package will help you win the job at a higher cost which obviously gives you more time to do a better job.

Be confident and stick to your costs and always remember just because you have a sheets or 1/2 a sheet of something left over it doesn’t mean you should give it away on another job! It’s your sheet not theirs! It’s also helpful to get jobs refused on cost as you can gain learn from that as if it’s a constant thing you know you have hit the limit for that service.

 

[johnnyb]

there's no doubt people expect a cad drawing. it's pretty much a standard thing now on kitchens and bedrooms. not for the making( I haven't got a clue about sketchup) but for the selling. I'm sure eventually a company will send a 3d camera in to digitize the space then size and design from that.( as some worktops are templated currently)
it would still leave the what do we make in house and what do we outsource conundrum. like all things if your running a big outfit then you can buy your solutions in. smaller places have to be more creative.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Hey, i come from a poor working class background (and am still poor working class ) and i was brought up to be too honest and i wear my heart on my sleeve, I got into carpentry/joinery because I'm strong with my arm but soft in the head and i admit i most definitely give away too much.

Id love to be a ruthless business man and make other souls like myself do all the work while i count the cash, but I'm still struggling from converting from the subcontractor i was on a 'day rate' to charging labour/materials/overheads/profit/plus more on every job

I'd say it's a mistake to not charge a mark up on your materials, although I assume you're not doing that from what you've already said. There's nothing intrinsically ruthless about applying a fair mark up. If you think about it re-selling materials you purchase for a job at cost translates into you making a loss on every single item you buy, and subsequently resell as an artefact you've made. The reason for this is that it requires your expertise, time and effort to establish your material costs for a job, the right materials, that is, not inappropriate ones, and frequently using your own vehicle (and time) to collect some or all of those materials.

In my own business, largely moribund now because I'm over retirement age and can longer be much bothered chasing work, I have the following mark ups.

1. Rough sawn solid wood which I then have to true up (saw, plane, etc): mark up = 100%
2. Board materials, e.g., plywood, MDF, etc: mark up = 50%
3. Proprietary items, e.g., polish, hardware, anything I basically just open and use: mark up = 20%
4. Finally, after pricing up all of a job's materials I add 10% to that total to cover sundries such as abrasive papers, screws, nails, adhesives, all the sort of stuff kept in stock but not usually allocated to a specific project.

So, as examples, if I were to purchase rough sawn black walnut boards at £1000.00 they are automatically resold to the client at £2000.00.
Similarly, £1000.00 worth of 2440 X 1220 X 18 mm plywood is resold to the client at £1,500.00.

As an aside, my estimates/quotes only show to the client a final price for a job after giving a description of the project and the materials to be used, that sort of thing. Materials are listed in my estimate/quote and I can see the various sub-totals, but they're hidden from the client's view by the accountancy software I use and the way I've set it up to generate estimates or quotes.

It's not greedy or ruthless on the maker's part as far as I'm concerned to mark up your purchased materials for a job, and nor are you obliged or duty bound to tell your customers what your mark up is. I'd go further and say that it's none of your customer's business how much you mark up your materials, and if they ask for that information I'd politely (usually) decline to provide it. Better still, perhaps, if your potential client is showing a tendency to be nit-picking and controlling at the estimate/quotation stage, is to consider running away from the job because that's a sign of a potentially difficult client who might decline to pay you in full at the end, possibly citing some sort of spurious or perceived fault in your work. Slainte.

 

[johnnyb]

just picture Adam smiths invisible hand sticking the "vees" up

 

[Kayen]

do you outsource any parts?

Yeah, I always get the MFC internals cut and 2mm ABS edged - I then cut the angles myself, everything else is made and sprayed in-house.

 

[Kayen]

I’m not sure I agree, Probox drawers are solid timber, dovetailed, sanded and pre finished.

Probox use CBC dovetailing so tail widths are variable so no dodgy bits at top.

I ran a joinery shop and tried both ways: making drawers in house wasn’t cheaper.

Yes, I'm sure it varies between companies and the processes they use - I know for me I can easily make and install four drawers, finished in so much as I don't have to take them out again, in a day with some change to spare.

 

[johnnyb]

how do you joint the corners of the veneered board? do you make the box then add a front?

 

[ChrisWiduWood]

I'd say it's a mistake to not charge a mark up on your materials, although I assume you're not doing that from what you've already said. There's nothing intrinsically ruthless about applying a fair mark up. If you think about it re-selling materials you purchase for a job at cost translates into you making a loss on every single item you buy, and subsequently resell as an artefact you've made. The reason for this is that it requires your expertise, time and effort to establish your material costs for a job, the right materials, that is, not inappropriate ones, and frequently using your own vehicle (and time) to collect some or all of those materials.

In my own business, largely moribund now because I'm over retirement age and can longer be much bothered chasing work, I have the following mark ups.

1. Rough sawn solid wood which I then have to true up (saw, plane, etc): mark up = 100%
2. Board materials, e.g., plywood, MDF, etc: mark up = 50%
3. Proprietary items, e.g., polish, hardware, anything I basically just open and use: mark up = 20%
4. Finally, after pricing up all of a job's materials I add 10% to that total to cover sundries such as abrasive papers, screws, nails, adhesives, all the sort of stuff kept in stock but not usually allocated to a specific project.

So, as examples, if I were to purchase rough sawn black walnut boards at £1000.00 they are automatically resold to the client at £2000.00.
Similarly, £1000.00 worth of 2440 X 1220 X 18 mm plywood is resold to the client at £1,500.00.

As an aside, my estimates/quotes only show to the client a final price for a job after giving a description of the project and the materials to be used, that sort of thing. Materials are listed in my estimate/quote and I can see the various sub-totals, but they're hidden from the client's view by the accountancy software I use and the way I've set it up to generate estimates or quotes.

It's not greedy or ruthless on the maker's part as far as I'm concerned to mark up your purchased materials for a job, and nor are you obliged or duty bound to tell your customers what your mark up is. I'd go further and say that it's none of your customer's business how much you mark up your materials, and if they ask for that information I'd politely (usually) decline to provide it. Better still, perhaps is to consider running away from the job because that's a sign of a potentially difficult client who'll refuse to pay you fully at the end. Slainte.

Thank you for your very insightful breakdown, its not often i get told the real truth on what people charge, i have subcontracted for years and the guys i work for all have big houses and fancy cars but always plead poverty to make sure i keep my prices low, now im working direct for the client i still have that mindset. What you have said makes complete sense for a business that aims to grow, and that is what i intend to do. Im not stupid in that I'm not unawares as what people charge, i just need to change my own mindset... grow a pair.. and start as i mean to go on.. many thanks.

Chris

 

[Kayen]

how do you joint the corners of the veneered board? do you make the box then add a front?

I mitre them and add a front. I keep the fronts and backs short so I don't have to cut out for the clips, which also allows me to get a few screws in. I made and installed four yesterday in my CNC room - they were 12mm white-faced MDF with 8mm MFC bottoms, but it's the same principle if they were pre-edged and sprayed veneered board.