Pricing help!

[Char]

Hi everyone,

My first post on here.

I'm a 23 year old carpenter from Bristol and have just finished making my first cabinet making project for a client. The price I've created seems really steep and I'm worried about their reaction.

Not sure how to upload images but I've made three bespoke 18mm MDF Cabinet Carcasses 2 @880x600x625 and 1 @1300x600x300
3 bespoke 19mm thick maple shaker doors and installed a 240v plinth heater underneath.
I've given the cabinets 3 coats of white paint and spray lacquered the doors

All the materials came to £500 including hardware,timber,fixings and finishes etc

I charge £100 per day so the labour brought the whole job up to about £900-£1000. I've barely made any profit but it seems a lot and I haven't worked slowly. It took me 4-5 days in the workshop to build/paint everything and 2 days on site to install. I feel I've worked too hard to be receiving £450 for my work but the whole price seems really extortionate.

I've looked online and bespoke cabinets etc do seem quite expensive so have I charged correctly?

Would really appreciate some help.

Many thanks,

Charlie

 

[RobinBHM]

Hi Charlie welcome to the forum

Unfortunately its hard to know without images much about value. Im guessing you are talking about 3no 2 door cabinets, shaker maple with solid framing and veneered centre panel? Id guess at £2k to £2 1/2k fitted.

For a bespoke job Id like to think it is face frame construction? If so, in maple your price is cheap. However the value to a significant extent depends on the quality of design and fitting. Setting out the design with the correct proportions of plinth, cornice, face frame, scribe trims etc.

I wouldnt recommend doing a job without an agreed price, quotation with spec and a dimensioned drawing. I know thats a lot of work but it defines a contract that is fair for both you and the client. Im guessing this must be a client you know well? The problem is the price now depends on what the client perceives to be what he/she wants to pay and has no connection to materials + labour cost. Also if uou didnt do a drawing, has your design met their brief?

Did you give an indication of price? That might tell you what the expectation is.

 

[Char]

Hi Robin,

Thanks so much for replying.

I'll try and learn how to upload an image so you have a better idea. The client is a neighbour who I've known for a while and it was quite a relaxed meeting. I said I'd do a quote/estimate but he said not to worry as he knew I wouldn't rip him off! Due to lack of experience I couldn't come up with an indication of price. My dad used to help me with my pricing before he passed away a few months ago. I'm useless haha!

Thanks again,

Charlie

 

[RobinBHM]

If you go to the board index, select the projects, workshop tours (or any other section). there is a picture posting guide at the top.

Always very dangerous to go along with a customer saying just go ahead and make it, the price is the price!

 

[Char]

Got there in the end!

The cabinets are not finished in this picture.

The gaps have been filled, caulked and painted,
Handles have been installed,
Mains sockets have been installed inside as have the adjustable shelves.

 

[doctor Bob]

Do you intend to do this for a living?
5 days to make and 2 days to fit is incredibly slow, sorry to be blunt but I earn a living from this, I would be looking at one man day in the work shop to make that and a mornings work for a fitter to install.

 

[sunnybob]

The hardest part of being self employed is to have the confidence to charge enough to make it worth while.
100 a day is NOT extortionate.

The secret of staying self employed is never do stuff for friends without a cast iron agreement in front of witnesses.

if you want, make out a full cost of parts used. Round every price up to the next tenner. Dont sell yourself cheap, Dont apologise.

"Heres the bill, thanks for the work, they'll last a lifetime" should be the limit of your conversation.

If you get real serious resistance, just say you dont want to get into an argument and you can take them all out again and he can get someone else to do the work.

Use it as a lesson for the future.

 

[Char]

Do you intend to do this for a living?
5 days to make and 2 days to fit is incredibly slow, sorry to be blunt but I earn a living from this, I would be looking at one man day in the work shop to make that and a mornings work for a fitter to install.

Well I would expect an experienced man to do it a lot quicker.

I didn't ask how long should it take. I asked about the price. Time taken is surely irrelevant on a price.

It's my first cabinet project so I understand I wouldn't make a good wage if I continued to work at that speed.

 

[Char]

The hardest part of being self employed is to have the confidence to charge enough to make it worth while.
100 a day is NOT extortionate.

The secret of staying self employed is never do stuff for friends without a cast iron agreement in front of witnesses.

if you want, make out a full cost of parts used. Round every price up to the next tenner. Dont sell yourself cheap, Dont apologise.

"Heres the bill, thanks for the work, they'll last a lifetime" should be the limit of your conversation.

If you get real serious resistance, just say you dont want to get into an argument and you can take them all out again and he can get someone else to do the work.

Use it as a lesson for the future.

Thanks for the helpful advise

 

[doctor Bob]

Do you intend to do this for a living?
5 days to make and 2 days to fit is incredibly slow, sorry to be blunt but I earn a living from this, I would be looking at one man day in the work shop to make that and a mornings work for a fitter to install.

Well I would expect an experienced man to do it a lot quicker.

I didn't ask how long should it take. I asked about the price. Time taken is surely irrelevant on a price.

It's my first cabinet project so I understand I wouldn't make a good wage if I continued to work at that speed.

I think you have done well to get £1000

 

[MattRoberts]

I didn't ask how long should it take. I asked about the price. Time taken is surely irrelevant on a price.

When you're charging for time as well as materials, I think the time taken is actually quite relevant.

If you're new to cabinet making and therefore have been slower than someone more experienced because you've been learning, should you not charge for how long it should have taken rather than how long it did take?

 

[Char]

That's what I thought I was doing with my relatively low rate. Apparently not.

Some of the guys I've worked with charged double.

 

[Nelsun]

Up here in Shetland, the day rate for a hard grafting joiner is 250. And yet you'll pay 750 for a hand made oak resting chair. Go figure.

I don't know what your connection with your client is but I'd sound them out in advance of a bill on a high day rate but give them a consession for not having agreed a price to start with. And get your head into pricing before taking your next commission

 

[jlawford]

I'm not a professional craftsman (weekend woodworker!) but I am a professional salesperson with 12 years experience dealing with and advising small businesses.

Key points for me are know your market and charge what your worth.

You will have to do some bread and butter work for sure to keep the money coming in, but more custom and bespoke projects give you the option to charge more- as long as your work is up to scratch of course! If someone cares enough to have quality bespoke solutions in their house they won't mind spending more to get what they want i.e. Spending £2K on quality built in cabinets instead of half that at oak furniture land or something similar

Also the idea of value and perceived value. If you charge a premium price it must be good quality right? That's what the customer who can pay the premium price is thinking. If a certain customer won't lay premium prices then you can look at offering simpler cabinets etc...that are easier to make rather than downgrading your pricing.

 

[sunnybob]

Do you intend to do this for a living?
5 days to make and 2 days to fit is incredibly slow, sorry to be blunt but I earn a living from this, I would be looking at one man day in the work shop to make that and a mornings work for a fitter to install.

This guy has told us its his first post here and his first job.
tell me that none of you screwed up your very first job, and havent screwed up any since.

A few weeks back there was a large moan here that no one was taking up the tools. no wonder with "helpful" responses like that.

 

[doctor Bob]

Do you intend to do this for a living?
5 days to make and 2 days to fit is incredibly slow, sorry to be blunt but I earn a living from this, I would be looking at one man day in the work shop to make that and a mornings work for a fitter to install.

This guy has told us its his first post here and his first job.
tell me that none of you screwed up your very first job, and havent screwed up any since.

A few weeks back there was a large moan here that no one was taking up the tools. no wonder with "helpful" responses like that.

Or it's a reality check, he is a carpenter, I assume he's fairly proficient, therefore I assume he is hoping to make a living from cabinet making and carpentry. The reality is he needs to speed up, not charge double or he won't make a living. Trust me if it's possible to just decide to double the cost of a job we all probably would. However we would all be twiddling our bum hair.
I didn't realise I was solely responsible for the lack of trades in this industry due to a single post. All my efforts over the last 15 years running an annual apprenticeship scheme at work wasted, god forgive me!!!!!! Anyway of to work to make an honest living and interview apprentices for this years position .....................

 

[petermillard]

Or it's a reality check, he is a carpenter, he's fairly proficient, therefore I assume he is hoping to make a living from cabinet making and carpentry. The reality is he needs to speed up, not charge double...

I suspect there's room for both. Yes, he probably needs to speed up, but he absolutely needs to be charging more. Seem to recall you writing once, Bob, that when you were starting out doors took you ages because you didn't have enough clamps. I have a small workshop - there's not much I can do while paint is drying. I can make up for this by charging more, because London.

So, a slightly different game when you're a one-man-band, don't you,think?

Also, I have to ask; one man-day to make and paint 3 cabinets - really? #impressed

Cheers, Peter

 

[JSW]

Also, I have to ask; one man-day to make and paint 3 cabinets - really? #impressed

Not to mention ...

3 bespoke 19mm thick maple shaker doors and installed a 240v plinth heater underneath.
I've given the cabinets 3 coats of white paint and spray lacquered the doors
Charlie

If they're from scratch, then no wayyyy one day!

 

[sunnybob]

Do you intend to do this for a living?
5 days to make and 2 days to fit is incredibly slow, sorry to be blunt but I earn a living from this, I would be looking at one man day in the work shop to make that and a mornings work for a fitter to install.

This guy has told us its his first post here and his first job.
tell me that none of you screwed up your very first job, and havent screwed up any since.

A few weeks back there was a large moan here that no one was taking up the tools. no wonder with "helpful" responses like that.

Or it's a reality check, he is a carpenter, I assume he's fairly proficient, therefore I assume he is hoping to make a living from cabinet making and carpentry. The reality is he needs to speed up, not charge double or he won't make a living. Trust me if it's possible to just decide to double the cost of a job we all probably would. However we would all be twiddling our bum hair.
I didn't realise I was solely responsible for the lack of trades in this industry due to a single post. All my efforts over the last 15 years running an annual apprenticeship scheme at work wasted, god forgive me!!!!!! Anyway of to work to make an honest living and interview apprentices for this years position .....................

He asked for help.......

 

[Mike Jordan]

You must keep in mind that a bespoke item will have very little value to anyone but the person ordering it, so you can't afford to have the customers changing their minds. Drawings and photos of previous projects solve the problems of the customer who has something in his minds eye that isn't in yours.
I am making items from a range of previous jobs or from customers photos of similar items to the thing they want.
I always send a written quote and take a 50% deposit before starting work. This tends to concentrate the customers mind and make them consider if the item is what they really have in mind!
The sheer volume of imports from China and other places means that most items of domestic furniture made in oak for example are now described as "carefully made in our workshops". This actually means unloaded from a container as a flat pack and fitted with a few KD fasteners. There is no way that anyone can compete with the prices of these in my opinion. The competent craftsman can make a living but only by working in specialist areas where one off items cannot be mass produced and sold on the net.
If you are to cover overheads involved in running a small workshop, paying liability insurance and transport costs, I suggest that you start calculating at £200 a day. ( this figure will vary according to area)