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Vaccine Passports (domestic).

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FatmanG

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I don't accuse people of killing people.

Although there are statistics that demonstrate a very compelling correlation between the rise of the anti-vax movement, and increased excess mortality from preventable childhood disease; so I probably could argue that in a more general sense with a sound evidentiary position to support it.

My argument is that the duty to prevent foreseeable loss of life can be held as incompatible with the right to personal choice; and that we have a nuanced legal and ethical position around that already...



There is limited evidence to suggest vaccination reduces transmissibility, so the balance of evidence to date suggests vaccination is a social good.

The UK is currently running "Challenge Trials" where healthy unvaccinated volunteers are exposed to COVID to determine pathogen dose response, which will be followed by similar trials in vaccinated individuals to determine pathenogenic load and shedding, from which we can get an accurate picture of how much transmission would be reduced.


I don't mandate anything, I asserted the nature of our current national position on a complex moral/ethical issue, and made reference to evidence of where you could see that played out in our laws, if you so chose to look.

If you mean I'm mandating vaccination, then you only need to read the three posts in which I explicitly state I disagree with it to realise that's not the case.

My issue is with your representation of a complex ethical issue in an unhelpfully black and white way to support your position as being "right", when in fact there cannot be a "right answer" because it goes beyond facts into social attitudes and personal beliefs... Which David Hume articulated as the "Is-Ought Problem"

My argument isn't with your position on vaccination, but with your failure to faithfully represent the complexity of the moral issues inherent with taking any position on it.

Can you point to a body of credible scientific evidence which contradicts the Chief Medical Officer?


I'm not familiar with any such information, and have been following the COVID related preprints and papers in the Lancet, Nature, etc.

The WHO has flipped flopped more times than a gymnast over masks, lockdowns etc Treatments like Hydroxychloroquine advocated by many Drs were demonized and some lost their jobs for suggesting it and now after January 20th 2021 they were proven to be correct.

AHA! "The mainstream media" the telltale phrase which instantly explains so much.

AHA your response tells me your not objective, not open minded and you stereotype nor free thinker.

I too have a suspicion of the media, but am generally comfortable that their reporting is accurate on the key facts, and comfortable verifying things independently (such as reading the scientific papers at source, and running my own stats on published data) when they don't seem consistent, or appear to be turning into opinion.

Doing that has broadly supported my view that the media is more inadequate than it is misleading, and there isn't some kind of conspiracy to suppress information or deceive us on a grand scale.

So the second you talk about "the mainstream media", rather than a specific failing you can point to it makes everything you've said up to that point sound much less credible...


The mainstream media do not report news objectively anymore they do not investigate they all are telling a story, the same story morning noon and night.
 
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Jacob

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....... The options being proffered seem to be either violence or total exclusion from society - also known as imprisonment. Neither a good option, in my opinion. Far better to a) work harder on convincing people that the vaccine is a good idea, and b) not move towards a collectivist, dictatorial, dystopian nightmare. Ymmv.
False antitheses.
Option b) is not the only alternative to option a)
 

Blackswanwood

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It's not the same though is it? If you don't have a driving license you are not allowed to drive a car. But you are allowed to get a bus, a train, a taxi, a bicycle. You are not cut off from society if you can't drive. Some people still drive without a license, quite a few in fact, no one goes around checking your papers unless you have an accident really.

The passport one is different again, anyone can get a passport, you just fill in the form and pay the fee, there is no test you have to pass to get a passport. At no point to get either of those two documents must you submit to an invasive medical procedure and not having either of those document doesn't stop you from going to the shops or going to a restaurant.
I’m not following why not having a vaccine passport would result in someone being cut off from society? I don’t think it will happen anyway but perhaps a half way house if it did would be to make it a requirement to enter a football stadium or music festival etc? It still leaves the problem of where you draw the line but as with most things related to our response to the pandemic there are no perfect answers.
 

sploo

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Actually it seems there are several here that would like no vaccine to equal house arrest.
I was going to say that I personally wouldn't go that far, because someone could go out and just ensure to maintain safe distance from others. But, then I remembered that anti-vaxxers aren't exactly the most rational or smart bunch...
 

Rorschach

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I’m not following why not having a vaccine passport would result in someone being cut off from society? I don’t think it will happen anyway but perhaps a half way house if it did would be to make it a requirement to enter a football stadium or music festival etc? It still leaves the problem of where you draw the line but as with most things related to our response to the pandemic there are no perfect answers.
If you are required to show a vaccine passport to go to any public place such as shops, pubs, restaurants then that is effectively cutting someone off some society. There is possibly more of an argument for special cases such as large music festivals for example where social distancing is impossible. I am still uncomfortable with that but I could be persuaded. It's the "everyday" things that worry me, shopping, eating etc.
 

Rorschach

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I was going to say that I personally wouldn't go that far, because someone could go out and just ensure to maintain safe distance from others. But, then I remembered that anti-vaxxers aren't exactly the most rational or smart bunch...
I am not an anti-vaxxer, but I am anti-vaccine passport.
 

sploo

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AHA your response tells me your not objective, not open minded and you stereotype nor free thinker.
That's essentially the thrust of the NewsThump comedy site's headline "You should think for yourself and agree with me, insists conspiracy theorist without slightest trace of irony".
 

sploo

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I am not an anti-vaxxer, but I am anti-vaccine passport.
I'm anti speed limits; because I'd happily cruise down a motorway at 100mph+, but I accept society has rules that are intended to keep the public safe. Also, they're needed to keep others safe because there are far too many clueless d*ckheads who will inadvertently harm others due to their own ineptitude.
 

sploo

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If you are required to show a vaccine passport to go to any public place such as shops, pubs, restaurants then that is effectively cutting someone off some society.
Though obviously if you were unvaccinated, were a carrier, and someone in the shop, pub, or restaurant later died of covid then you'd have effectively cut them off from being alive, no?
 

Rorschach

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Though obviously if you were unvaccinated, were a carrier, and someone in the shop, pub, or restaurant later died of covid then you'd have effectively cut them off from being alive, no?
Potentially, but how is that any different from how we have lived for the last several thousand years (or hundred years if you are talking post vaccine development)?
 

Jacob

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...... Far better to a) work harder on convincing people that the vaccine is a good idea, and b) not move towards a collectivist, dictatorial, dystopian nightmare. Ymmv.
Brilliant! Could argue the same for taxation. As we know, under lenient low-taxation regimes the money comes flooding in for public services and welfare.
 

Rorschach

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Because now we know better, and have the tools to not cause the problem?
But we have had the tools for a long time. in 2015 about 30k people died of flu that winter (with a vaccine being used remember). No masks, no lockdown, no social distancing, no vaccine passport.
 

Jelly

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I’d feel the same if my argument had been so comprehensively dissected and taken apart buy such an expert 🤣. I’m only surprised David Icke wasn’t called as an expert witness ...
I'm just glad he hasn't outed me as a reptilian mastermind living in a cavern that used to be the "Hole in the Road"...

I was quaking in my scales for a minute there, so I was.
 

RobinBHM

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But we have had the tools for a long time. in 2015 about 30k people died of flu that winter (with a vaccine being used remember). No masks, no lockdown, no social distancing, no vaccine passport.
Flu in 2015:
No hundreds of healthcare workers dying
No extreme overload of NHS
No long term Health issues for survivors


Of course if you compared 2015 flu stats to 2020 Covid deaths had govt taken zero measures.....then you would be making a balanced comparison.
 
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