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Rorschach

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Because almost all of them will only have received a single dose so far; and the manufacturer's only tested the efficacy with two doses. I.e. they're not "vaccinated"... yet.

(yes, there is now data indicating that a single Pzifer dose looks to give promising results, but that's only recently become available)
The over 80's I know have all had 2 doses but regardless as you say there is good evidence a single dose is effective.
 

D_W

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Bonus!

This is a major digression, but an acquaintance of mine who develops embedded systems for building automation, has an RFID microchip in his hand which controls lots of aspects of his home.

I asked him how he got it, and he explained that it was very expensive to get one implanted professionally by a doctor...

So he bought a sterile microchipping kit from an online veterinary supplier and DIY'ed it, then adjusted the RFID sensors to work with the chip he had. Apparently it took him three goes (and three kits over several weeks), because he wanted the chip in his right hand, but wasn't very good with his left, and he couldn't find anyone willing to do it for him. Absolutely Nuts!

But the way he forms his own key for the house, and can have things like light, heat and radio follow him round the house effortlessly does look mighty convenient. He's been working on trying to reverse engineer his contactless card to put that on an implantable chip too, which is again a little out there, but very... handy
I have a feeling that chipping will be voluntary by consumers. The argument will be "you've moved control of your household thermostat to your phone, payment to your phone, banking, bills ,etc. to your phone. You could do even more and more securely with a chip and here's a discount we'll provide for chip embedders".

As soon as a discount is involved, it's over. I'm not anti or pro any of it, either - it's not on my list of real concerns in life, just an observation to what leads to widespread voluntary adoption.
 

Rorschach

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Unless I am misunderstanding some of the recent posts, having the vaccine does not make one safe. The full course of vaccination reduces a person's chance of becoming seriously ill from Covid-19. The idea of it making a person safe is more than likely something decided on social media and passed on like Chinese whispers.
Well no such thing as safe in life really, safer is I suppose a better word and the safest people currently in the country are Children and the over 80's.
 

Jelly

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I have a feeling that chipping will be voluntary by consumers. The argument will be "you've moved control of your household thermostat to your phone, payment to your phone, banking, bills ,etc. to your phone. You could do even more and more securely with a chip and here's a discount we'll provide for chip embedders".

As soon as a discount is involved, it's over. I'm not anti or pro any of it, either - it's not on my list of real concerns in life, just an observation to what leads to widespread voluntary adoption.
Yeah, I can entirely see that happening just like that...

I'm not sure what data they would be harvesting in order to pay for that discount, but you can bet that the operators of the schemes would be.
 

D_W

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The over 80's I know have all had 2 doses but regardless as you say there is good evidence a single dose is effective.
data here
* parents had both doses, no real reaction (same with inlaws). arm soreness and very mild headache were the worst for all four inlaws and parents (mid 70s age)
* wife had both shots (health care). pfizer. Reaction to the second was 1 1/2 days of extreme fatigue and then gone the same as it came - all at once

pfizer has since been found to be about the same effectiveness 3 weeks after first shot as it is after 2 (this is short term, will long term be different? don't know).

As a low-end tub (205 pounds, but just over the line for "obese" bmi) I had the first pfizer shot so far - mild arm soreness, maybe a headache (I always have headaches, more often than not, so probably not the shot, but if it was the shot, we'll call it "cute" compared to someone who gets real headaches).

Second shot in two weeks. Not dreading or looking forward to it, don't really care.

Second data bit - inlaws (my generation, not parents) all got moderna shot but got covid about 1 week after. They didn't have protection yet and everyone in their house got it. Nobody was seriously sick, but with their age and physical condition, money bet would be the shot didn't do much at that point (fatigue for a week or so for one, fatigue for the other for a little longer, then gone. All three young kids got fevers and were tired for a couple of days).

If they were exposed several weeks later, they probably wouldn't have noticed. BIL went back to work with an IT group in an enclosed space, one dude spread the droplets a day or two prior to BIL's symptoms and that was that. His lack of care wasn't due to having had the vaccine - he hasn't paid much attention to covid the whole time, only his wife has.
 

D_W

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Yeah, I can entirely see that happening just like that...

I'm not sure what data they would be harvesting in order to pay for that discount, but you can bet that the operators of the schemes would be.
I think it's more a matter of the harvester of the data locking in their route (whereas, if you have an apple phone, you may get android next and then apple loses that data revenue). If you get the chip, then someone may be willing to do something (discount) initially in exchange for securing the data stream.

Common tactic. As time goes on, the discount goes away, but people forget.

Our electronic traffic/toll road devices here are that way. The govts. don't want to mandate use of the device, so they stratify the price levels instead.
 

NormanB

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I got given a credit card sized preprinted card with my name, vaccine type, batch number and date received, and a space to put the date for my second jab. I can just put that in my wallet.

Will that do?
Probably not.
 

CornishWoodworker

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Unless I am misunderstanding some of the recent posts, having the vaccine does not make one safe. The full course of vaccination reduces a person's chance of becoming seriously ill from Covid-19. The idea of it making a person safe is more than likely something decided on social media and passed on like Chinese whispers.
Correct
After being vaccinated, you are less likely to be severely affected by Covid. You may well catch it and spread it but the chances of dying from it will be reduced by over 85%, barring new mutations. This is why there will most likely be regular updates, similar to the flu jab.
Our flu jab( Northern hemisphere) is made to counteract known mutations from that found in the southern hemisphere. The Southern hemisphere flu jab is then made to counteract the known and any newer mutations found in Northern Hemishere. This cycle continues on a 6 monthly basis
 

alex_heney

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Unless I am misunderstanding some of the recent posts, having the vaccine does not make one safe. The full course of vaccination reduces a person's chance of becoming seriously ill from Covid-19. The idea of it making a person safe is more than likely something decided on social media and passed on like Chinese whispers.
The single dose is apparently sufficient to prevent you getting it badly enough to require hospitalisation.
 

sploo

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I have a feeling that chipping will be voluntary by consumers. The argument will be "you've moved control of your household thermostat to your phone, payment to your phone, banking, bills ,etc. to your phone. You could do even more and more securely with a chip and here's a discount we'll provide for chip embedders".
I absolutely oppose being forced to take a vaccine that I don't understand, or the control and tracking of my life. Says a guy instagramming a photo of his *rse tattoo, tagged with a location on Facebook, whilst
The single dose is apparently sufficient to prevent you getting it badly enough to require hospitalisation.
For the Pfizer vaccine there is now data that shows a single dose (without having been previously infected) gives a similar antibody level to having been infected, and prior infection + single dose gives a yet higher antibody level. What the actual effect of that is I don't know. I'm not sure if there's any similar data for the AstraZeneca shot (yet).
 

Terry - Somerset

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We can't win.

If we behave like normal social animals, Covid or a mutation thereof will get us. But we won't get flu!

Socially distancing increases our vulnerability to other viruses - flu, pneumonia etc. They may kill us. But we will be safe from Covid.

I'm conflcted.
 

Rorschach

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We can't win.

If we behave like normal social animals, Covid or a mutation thereof will get us. But we won't get flu!

Socially distancing increases our vulnerability to other viruses - flu, pneumonia etc. They may kill us. But we will be safe from Covid.

I'm conflcted.
Yes an unfortunate unintended consequence of social distancing. Will be interesting to see the death toll from flu etc next winter, I wonder if it could equal or exceed C19? That would be a really bad outcome.
 

FatmanG

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Because they also had an inept populist moron in charge who ignored the advice of the medical community.
Luckily they now have a communist saviour who can't string a sentence together. That guy, you know the guy who claimed to have a covid plan but has copied the populist morons one only putting a federal label on. The same populist moron whose operation warp speed paved the way for the vaccines to be developed your all so eager to take. That populist moron believes in people having agency over their lives and limited government the founding principles of the free world. Unfortunately smart buttocks with big ideas who think they know what's best for others always ends badly for someone. History is clear and I'm certain that the next generation will see that populist moron as a great leader.
 

sploo

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Luckily they now have a communist saviour who can't string a sentence together. That guy, you know the guy who claimed to have a covid plan but has copied the populist morons one only putting a federal label on. The same populist moron whose operation warp speed paved the way for the vaccines to be developed your all so eager to take. That populist moron believes in people having agency over their lives and limited government the founding principles of the free world. Unfortunately smart buttocks with big ideas who think they know what's best for others always ends badly for someone. History is clear and I'm certain that the next generation will see that populist moron as a great leader.
That's a bit of a word salad that I'm struggling to process, but is your overall gist:

1. Biden is a communist saviour
2. History will record Trump positively
 

Spectric

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Will be interesting to see the death toll from flu etc next winter
It may not be that bad on the basis that Covid has already taken out a lot of the most vunerable because they were left out like lambs for the slaughter due to incompetance and shortsightedness in the initial wave, I am more concerned about unlocking too soon before at least 75% of people are vacinated and if there is a delay in the vacination program then there should be a delay in unlocking. Once unlocking starts it will be a case of Lemmings to the slaughter and another wave unless we reach a high proportion of vacinated people to break the virus's lines of transmission.
 

Rorschach

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It may not be that bad on the basis that Covid has already taken out a lot of the most vunerable because they were left out like lambs for the slaughter due to incompetance and shortsightedness in the initial wave, I am more concerned about unlocking too soon before at least 75% of people are vacinated and if there is a delay in the vacination program then there should be a delay in unlocking. Once unlocking starts it will be a case of Lemmings to the slaughter and another wave unless we reach a high proportion of vacinated people to break the virus's lines of transmission.
Well flu affects different areas of society so you might see a high infant mortality instead.

There is no need for a delay, even with the cut back on vaccination we are still way ahead of the the governments targets on which is based the lockdown easing plan. We could still move the dates forward by at least a month and still be ahead of their "tests".

Lemmings to the slaughter is madness. Anyone susceptible to covid is either already dead or has already been vaccinated at least once, and will be twice quite soon. A large proportion of the country, especially the young have natural immunity and even those that don't are at very low risk of death or hospitalisation. In the healthy under 50's the deaths have been miniscule, almost statistically insignificant and the vulnerable under 50's (mostly the obese) are/have been vaccinated.

We will certainly have another wave of "cases" but deaths will be very low, indeed we are actually now running at below average deaths (total) for the time of year now.
 

Spectric

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Yes had not thought of the little ones, that would be a shame as they have escaped Covid and could be taken out by Flu.

We must ensure that we have the virus under control and unable to mutate, ok odds on it will eventually but again this time be prepared.

The problem is as we vacinate we reduce the available meat source for the virus and because it has less impact on that sector it has more chance of evolving into something different, it is after all only trying to survive. I think Israel is a good example where they now have an R value very low and evidence to show it is due to the high percentage of people vacinated, so surely it must be better to be extra cautious and put up with restrictions a little longer just to give a higher chance of coming out and staying out and leaving the rollercoaster behind. Then there needs to be an enquiry so as everything can be understood and documented so that we can be prepared and ready for what ever comes next and not get caught with our pants down.
 

Rorschach

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@Spectric it's a travesty what has happened (and will happen) to the young in the name of protecting the old, I can't imagine how awful it would be if we started losing children to preventable illness as well.

FYI, every infection causes a mutation.
 
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