This puts the Virus into the shadows

[sploo]

Can't see how mass EV use charging could work until they switch to removable batteries which could be charged overnight. Drive in, swap battery, drive out.

The modern high voltage charging can fill up a battery very quickly (allowing for concerns about reduction of battery life), but, assuming you can park overnight then it doesn't matter if it takes 1 hour or 8 hours to charge.

Granted that doesn't solve the problem of people without driveways.

 

[Rorschach]

If the panic porn media hadn't scared the public off nuclear power in the 70s, the UK would already be zero carbon on electricity, there wouldn't be windmills and solar panels soiling the countryside, and energy would be cheap. There is (mostly) no such thing as nuclear "waste". Nowadays "waste" from old reactors can be processed as fuel for new reactors.

For those worried about a nuclear apocalypse how about this, supply the power at 1/2 price within a mile of each reactor and see how many people want to live near them. Serious question, would house prices near reactors go up or down?

I'd live closer to a power station if my electricity bills were lower.

 

[bansobaby]

Yes, the idea of spreading power demand to match available supply is nothing new. As a student I had a VIP trip around Dinorwig (apologies for the spelling).
This is particularly relevant to wind and solar, so there are plenty of theories from electrolysis to hydrogen to storing compressed air.
As ever though, time is pressing and you can’t use a theory to charge your smartphone or EV....

For EVs remember that it's the peak power requirement on the grid that's the issue. There is work in progress (Google "HCALCS") to control charging of such high draw devices; such that the power use can be smoothed out overnight (where there's traditionally low load on the grid).

 

[sploo]

Yes, the idea of spreading power demand to match available supply is nothing new. As a student I had a VIP trip around Dinorwig (apologies for the spelling).
This is particularly relevant to wind and solar, so there are plenty of theories from electrolysis to hydrogen to storing compressed air.
As ever though, time is pressing and you can’t use a theory to charge your smartphone or EV....

It is pressing, but HCALCS aren't a theory.

 

[bansobaby]

It is pressing, but HCALCS aren't a theory.

Yes, sorry, didn’t mean to imply they were....
Again though, it is in part a solution to a problem that puts a limit of sorts on the use of technology.....someone else made the point about battery swapping, ie treat the batteries in much the same way as we treat petrol now.
if you look at the massive infrastructure involved in petrol distribution and considered applying the same investment in battery swapping infrastructure in the near term we might be getting somewhere, but I don’t mind betting it won’t happen.
All the eggs will go into the charging basket, which strikes me as being like having supertankers full of oil parked off shore, but no means of getting it into cars....

 

[novocaine]

Localised power production such as ITMP or Geopura intergrated hydrogen fuel cell CHP unit, acting as either island or augmented to the grid. both capable of CHP which results in 90-95% energy efficiency with the only waste product being pure water (about 50l an hour for a 100kw ballard fuel cell which is what is inside the magic box)

it's small time now, it won't be for long, peak power demand for site power (to replace diesel) is already in operation, it will be coming to the road side for EV charging.

as ever though, our limit is storage not production. high pressure storage of hydrogen, oxygen and ammonia are the current options in renewable energy, nuclear isn't a storage solution, it is a viable production solution though and in stout obverse to some of the views decreed in this thread is a clean energy solution (note, clean, not renewable).
solar has only become viable in recent years with better photovoltaic technology, solar heating (such as the power station in spain that caught fire) is a stand in that isn't on option for most temperate climates.
tidal is inefficient.
wind is viable if we can overcome the placement and with new technology pointing towards floating turbines we maybe starting to get there although tieback to the grid is somewhat of an issue if we go further offshore with it.
No one solution meets all the requirements, it will be a mix of all and it is coming and coming quicker than those outside the industry (renewables, oil and gas and nuclear) can imagine.

as said else where, it will not be an enforced phase shift, "World change isn't a war, its a slow shift of the zietgiest" and it will be your "choice" when it happens.

used that sound bite twice in 2 days about fairly different topics.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

There is work in progress (Google "HCALCS") to control charging of such high draw devices; such that the power use can be smoothed out overnight (where there's traditionally low load on the grid).

My electrician told me last week he's installing more and more Economy7 systems. The strange thing is that if the desire is to get rid of the usage spikes they're going about it the wrong way - the unit price difference between day time and night time becomes smaller with every year. Mine is now 16p - 11p ... ... a couple of years ago it was 15p - 6p.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

... energy would be cheap ...

No it wouldn't be cheap - it would be too easy to stick huge tax rates on it.

 

[Spectric]

Wind production cost here is 6 cents a kw/hr. Why would energy prices have to go high?

All depends on the price of the wind, someone will try and monopolise the resource.

So, respectfully, I would say there has been no material improvement in UK domestic house building standards in the last 60 odd years

Modern housebuilding is a disgrace, sole purpose is to make big bucks for property developers and the thought of having extra thick walls just means they can cram less buildings in.

There is (mostly) no such thing as nuclear "waste". Nowadays "waste" from old reactors can be processed as fuel for new reactors.

Thats like saying you can take your old 5 1/4 floppy disk and put it into a DVD drive. Have you any idea on the toxicity of the waste produced from fuel reprocessing.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Can't see how mass EV use charging could work until they switch to removable batteries which could be charged overnight. Drive in, swap battery, drive out.

Yes.
You should be able to drive up to an exchange point anywhere and switch batteries. It's like VHS and Betamax, Microsioft Windows etc. though, there are better but they come to market too late.

 

[sploo]

Yes, sorry, didn’t mean to imply they were....
Again though, it is in part a solution to a problem that puts a limit of sorts on the use of technology.....someone else made the point about battery swapping, ie treat the batteries in much the same way as we treat petrol now.
if you look at the massive infrastructure involved in petrol distribution and considered applying the same investment in battery swapping infrastructure in the near term we might be getting somewhere, but I don’t mind betting it won’t happen.
All the eggs will go into the charging basket, which strikes me as being like having supertankers full of oil parked off shore, but no means of getting it into cars....

Yea, I don't see it as a viable solution (unless maybe for HGVs). Part of the reason batteries have become near impossible to remove on mobile phones is down to compactness of packaging. Designing a car where the batteries could be easily removed would add all sorts of other compromises to the size and weight.

Overnight (slow) charging for those with a driveway is "fine", and the superfast chargers for those on the move should be acceptable - though obviously there aren't enough of them at the moment, and they're often in the "wrong" locations due to the availability of the grid infrastructure.

 

[sirocosm]

Not sure that really matches the available evidence. The original industry claim of "power too cheap to meter" has been around for decades with regard to nuclear, but the reality is still that nuclear plants costs huge sums of money and take years to build.

The "no such thing as waste" surprises me too - at least, I understood that there are still problems with dangerous waste products.

I'm not inherently anti-nuclear; but (fission energy generation, at least) doesn't appear to be a panacea.

If the media hadn't scared the public off nuclear, the original claim would have come true, maybe not too cheap to meter (is anything too cheap?) but it would much, much cheaper. It is economics of scale, reactors are expensive because there are very few of them.

Canada designed mini-reactors suitable for district heating (SLOWPOKE reactor). They were intended to be unmanned, but again the public was scared off their use. There is no reason they could not build batteries of small modular reactors, it is all down to regulation which is not so much about safety, but about politics. Fukushima would not have happened if they would have went with the CANDU, again politics.

 

[sploo]

My electrician told me last week he's installing more and more Economy7 systems. The strange thing is that if the desire is to get rid of the usage spikes they're going about it the wrong way - the unit price difference between day time and night time becomes smaller with every year. Mine is now 16p - 11p ... ... a couple of years ago it was 15p - 6p.

Whilst this sounds like a cynical response; the purpose of HCALCS and overnight EV charging isn't really to save you money; it's to stop you popping the grid like a ripe tomato

However, there are moves to create dynamic tariffs; whereby the unit cost can change rapidly across the day - allowing for cheaper power when supply is plentiful.

In theory then, you could have an EV hooked up to your house, and solar panels, and allow your car battery to supply the grid at peak times (and get credit for it), charge the EV from solar when it's sunny, but also ensure that you'll have XX miles of range at 8am on a weekday morning when you leave for work (by the grid guaranteeing that the car will get sufficient charge across the day/night, preferably when the unit cost of power is at its cheapest).

Some years off yet though.

 

[sirocosm]

No it wouldn't be cheap - it would be too easy to stick huge tax rates on it.

Or worse yet they would sell it to Europe and drive up the price here. That happened in Canada in Manitoba. They had a huge glut of hyro power in Manitoba and convinced everyone to switch to electric central heating (it gets -40C in the winter). Then they started selling it to other provinces and the prices went up to match the market (ie. gas).

 

[sploo]

If the media hadn't scared the public off nuclear, the original claim would have come true, maybe not too cheap to meter (is anything too cheap?) but it would much, much cheaper. It is economics of scale, reactors are expensive because there are very few of them.

I just don't see the evidence for that with the continued cost of building new reactors. Economies of scale aren't really going to make that much difference if you go from a few hundred worldwide reactors to several more hundred.

Believe me; I'd be happy to be wrong though.

 

[Ozi]

Yes, sorry, didn’t mean to imply they were....
Again though, it is in part a solution to a problem that puts a limit of sorts on the use of technology.....someone else made the point about battery swapping, ie treat the batteries in much the same way as we treat petrol now.
if you look at the massive infrastructure involved in petrol distribution and considered applying the same investment in battery swapping infrastructure in the near term we might be getting somewhere, but I don’t mind betting it won’t happen.
All the eggs will go into the charging basket, which strikes me as being like having supertankers full of oil parked off shore, but no means of getting it into cars....

I used to think battery swapping was the way forward until working for Jaguar, Landrover. I was an atribute leader in vehicle safety not a battery specialist but seeing the complexity of the systems associated with the batteries and the amount of energy that would have to be consumed in charging and discharging just associated with the swap, I don't think it's practical. One solution that does work is having a battery storage system in the home. This is an excellent use of used automotive traction batteries and has a number of benefits. Firstly you charge your battery bank when demand and hence price is lowest. You can sell back a percentage of stored power when demand is high, combined with solar or other renewables and you get rid of the famous half time power spike. The batteries we used had to deliver a maximum out put of 127 amps, with rapid charging and discharging plus use in extreme temperatures they deteriorate (although this is improving) my figures here are about 3 years out of date but in Germany automotive companies were buying back batteries putting them into blocks about the size of a washing machine to be installed in houses. The draw from domestic use is so low and the temperature issue does not apply so they last for very many years. When I last heard 20000 units were in use which was equated to not building a power station. You will never collect enough solar power to run your car but you spread the draw out over off peak hours or the full 24 hours if need be

 

[Ozi]

Localised power production such as ITMP or Geopura intergrated hydrogen fuel cell CHP unit, acting as either island or augmented to the grid. both capable of CHP which results in 90-95% energy efficiency with the only waste product being pure water (about 50l an hour for a 100kw ballard fuel cell which is what is inside the magic box)

it's small time now, it won't be for long, peak power demand for site power (to replace diesel) is already in operation, it will be coming to the road side for EV charging.

as ever though, our limit is storage not production. high pressure storage of hydrogen, oxygen and ammonia are the current options in renewable energy, nuclear isn't a storage solution, it is a viable production solution though and in stout obverse to some of the views decreed in this thread is a clean energy solution (note, clean, not renewable).
solar has only become viable in recent years with better photovoltaic technology, solar heating (such as the power station in spain that caught fire) is a stand in that isn't on option for most temperate climates.
tidal is inefficient.
wind is viable if we can overcome the placement and with new technology pointing towards floating turbines we maybe starting to get there although tieback to the grid is somewhat of an issue if we go further offshore with it.
No one solution meets all the requirements, it will be a mix of all and it is coming and coming quicker than those outside the industry (renewables, oil and gas and nuclear) can imagine.

as said else where, it will not be an enforced phase shift, "World change isn't a war, its a slow shift of the zietgiest" and it will be your "choice" when it happens.

used that sound bite twice in 2 days about fairly different topics.

Very much with you on CHP with fuel cells, intrigued to know why you think tidal is inefficient, I know it has a number of serious issues but wouldn't include that, you sound like you know something I don't, please tell.

 

[Ozi]

No it wouldn't be cheap - it would be too easy to stick huge tax rates on it.

Sorely no government would be that mean spirited

 

[sirocosm]

Thats like saying you can take your old 5 1/4 floppy disk and put it into a DVD drive. Have you any idea on the toxicity of the waste produced from fuel reprocessing.

Spent fuel from previous generation reactors is now be reprocessed for fuel, as are other sources, such as material from decomissioned weapons. The problem is that if you try to learn anything about the subject, all you will find is stupid articles in the media claiming:
"Why nuclear power is not the solution to climate change!" and then they go on to blather about windmills and solar power.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Whilst this sounds like a cynical response; the purpose of HCALCS and overnight EV charging isn't really to save you money; it's to stop you popping the grid like a ripe tomato

Precisely. They should be encouraging people to use electicity overnight - which is why they shouldn't be making the night time savings less.