THE FOURTH OF JULY

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you are clearly a very very very patient person with a very long life expectancy
Mostly it's just a perfect balance of sarcasm and exasperation that clowns, grifters, and con artists have not only succeeded, but continue to succeed long after their con should be obvious to all.
 
The big question is do we as in the UK just want to become an EU state ruled by others, I can see that going by the antics of our politicians that might sound a better option but the EU is not the wonder solution people seem to think it is. For the EU to work it needs to become a single entity with a single governing body otherwise it will always just be a collection of countries all arguing their corner, will this ever happen I doubt it because unlike the UK where people just live here the French and Germans tend to be more patriotic. Then europe is politically changing and moving further to the right as the people have had enough of their leaders like whimsical Macron and so the EU now is not the EU we left, it is far more turbulent and yet we seem to dislike the right wing in the UK but can accept a right wing EU. The problem is that whilst the west is bickering and in turmoil the east is growing fast and add to this the issues with global warming and rising sea levels our forthcoming election of a new leader will have minimal impact globally. So rather than hope that getting back into the EU will fix the leaks and stop the boat sinking we should fix it ourselves and stand on our own two feet which is in itself a problem because of our failed political system and years of letting things slide into dereliction.
 
The big question is do we as in the UK just want to become an EU state ruled by others, I can see that going by the antics of our politicians that might sound a better option but the EU is not the wonder solution people seem to think it is. For the EU to work it needs to become a single entity with a single governing body otherwise it will always just be a collection of countries all arguing their corner, will this ever happen I doubt it because unlike the UK where people just live here the French and Germans tend to be more patriotic. Then europe is politically changing and moving further to the right as the people have had enough of their leaders like whimsical Macron and so the EU now is not the EU we left, it is far more turbulent and yet we seem to dislike the right wing in the UK but can accept a right wing EU. The problem is that whilst the west is bickering and in turmoil the east is growing fast and add to this the issues with global warming and rising sea levels our forthcoming election of a new leader will have minimal impact globally. So rather than hope that getting back into the EU will fix the leaks and stop the boat sinking we should fix it ourselves and stand on our own two feet which is in itself a problem because of our failed political system and years of letting things slide into dereliction.
If you're an EU member then you have elected MEPs to represent you; so arguably you're no more "ruled by others" than your own government. As a non-EU country (whose overwhelmingly largest trading partner is the EU nations) we now have to meet EU standards/rules in order to do business, but have absolutely zero say on those rules.

I'm not sure that anyone that doesn't like the right wing in the UK would like/accept the right wingers in other EU nations. Indeed some of them (National Rally - formerly the French NF), AfD (Germany) are deeply disturbing and seem to be more openly unpleasant than even the likes of UKIP/TBP/Reform/whatever-they're-called-this-week.
 
Your blithe dismissal of the worst thing to happen to Great Britain in a very long time is disgraceful.
Excuse me?

I'm not sure how you reached the conclusion that my post amounted to 'blithe dismissal'.

Which bit of this did you not understand?

Quote:

Age band: % who voted How they voted

18-24 yrs olds: 38% 64/36% remain/leave
25-34 yrs old: 45% 57/43% remain/leave
35-44 yrs old: 53% 54/46% remain/leave
45-54 yrs old: 66% 44/54% remain/leave
55 yrs plus: 80% 40/60% remain/leave

So, if six in ten under 25s didn’t even bother to vote, fewer than half of 25-34 yr olds, and just over half of 35-44 yr olds, it seems to me that if they don’t like the outcome, maybe they should have put their votes where their mouths were, like eight out of ten over 55s did? Do they ever consider how much of a struggle former generations had to get the vote that six out of ten under 25s don’t bother to use?

End quote.

Under 45s as a proportion of those eligible to vote far outweighed those over the age of 45. Had under 45s bothered to turn out to vote in the same proportion as the over 45s the result would have been to remain in the EU by a wide margin, and of course it's the under 45s who will have to live outside of the EU for many years longer than the over 45s.

It therefore seems to me that if anyone can be accused of 'blithe dismissal', it's the under 45s who didn't bother to vote, and seriously let down their peer group who did bother to turn out to vote.

Like most I guess, I was surprised at the outcome of the EU referendum – I’d imagined that with the pre-referendum ‘Project Fear’ campaign, the result would have been something like 57/43 to remain. At the time, in arguing in favour of staying in the EU, David Cameron said "I'm not interested in 'Project Fear' - I'm focussing on 'Project Fact".

What very few expected, including the pre-referendum polling pundits, was that so many under 45s wouldn't bother to turn out. What 'BoJo' said was "we can get Brexit done - it's oven ready". What he didn't say was the it was half-baked.

Just my take on things - I don't expect others to concur.

In any event you can't create a future by living in the past.

David.
 
In any event you can't create a future by living in the past.
The best way to create a future is by learning from the past. We've got little else to go on.

As for the under-45s not bothering to turn out to vote, they live in a world cluttered by noise, dishonesty and deceit largely created by powerful, enormously wealthy people, and the last thing those people want is the general population understanding how things work. Little wonder many younger people are disillusioned, paralysed by the endless stream of garbage much of the privately owned/ manipulated media serves them.
 
So, if six in ten under 25s didn’t even bother to vote, fewer than half of 25-34 yr olds,
It does show that these age groups have little interest in politics and can anyone blame them. Many are not seeing the future being that great and will have to work until a ripe old age before retirement so have no faith left in the system and really the best opportunities for many would be to emigrate.

The only fair voting system is where it is a legal requirement to vote so then the outcome represents the population.
 
"Project fear" was a term used by brexiters, not remainers. As it turns out, maybe you should have been more fearful.
I voted, but I can see why a lot of younger people didn't. Like me, they probably never imagined that so many people would buy all the hatemongering claptrap and vote to leave. I was in shock for years. I was astounded when.Trump was elected, when Boris became PM(although he looks better with every passing successor) and I'll probably be astounded again, when Trump wins again, and Farage becomes leader of the opposition. It's all beginning to seem like a bad dream.
 
The best way to create a future is by learning from the past. We've got little else to go on.
Only 2 of those groups had any knowledge of life outside the EU - and even they were too young to have any real knowledge of what it was really like - the oldest (55) being only 8 when we went in.

It would be interesting (to me) to see figures for those who were in the older age bands. I suspect that the 'trend' would continue.
 
Does your local MP actually represent you, so how can an MEP represent a country when countries like Germany will have more influence and want more unification unlike others.

Interesting reading

https://www.friendsofeurope.org/ins...decide-whether-the-eu-thrives-or-falls-apart/
How could a Labour or Lib Dem MP represent their constituency when parties such as the Conservatives had more influence (due to having a majority, and being the party in power)?

I'd be fairly certain that for a great majority of people, their nation's MEPs probably represented them just as significantly as their local MP (which is to admit; probably not a lot).
 
Then europe is politically changing and moving further to the right as the people have had enough of their leaders like whimsical Macron and so the EU now is not the EU we left, it is far more turbulent and yet we seem to dislike the right wing in the UK but can accept a right wing EU.
For all the relish in the RW press here about far right success, while they increased seats the centre right EPP won the election and are still in control in Parliament (more so as they strengthened). It's a bit a shift to the right but nothing like the British press was making out.
 
It's not going to be that long before we vote to rejoin. I give it ten years.
I'd love to share your optimism, but I don't see the dark "Tufton Street" money drying up anytime soon, and the Daily Fail will still be there to poison the minds of the next generation.
 
I'd love to share your optimism, but I don't see the dark "Tufton Street" money drying up anytime soon, and the Daily Fail will still be there to poison the minds of the next generation.
There is little to gain for the country from going back.
 

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Not entirely. Much of Britain's past success has been due to having the raw materials needed for the technology of the day; Timber in Tudor times, Iron, Copper, Tin and coal for the industrial revolution.
Now we don't have that proliferation of resources, we've used them all up.

What's been lacking is the government vision to invest in industries that could have replaced the expired old ones. That could have provided jobs, wealth locally and national security to not be reliant on foreign countries for key goods.
I think the various administrations have had the vision but ultimately not the people with the ability to implement the vision better than other countries. It’s a common and sadly regular failing in the administrative class that supposedly lead us. They think they are world leaders but evidence would suggest otherwise.
 
The least we can hope for is easing or (better) removal of the trade barriers created by leaving the EU (tho free movement of people is now so heavily politicised in this country, it'll be tricky). We simply can't afford them, as was obvious from the outset. Hopefully, Labour will make progress in that direction.
 
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