Table saw or Panel saw?

[Doug71]

It's time for me to upgrade my table saw. I have got by with a site style saw for years, I only use it for ripping, everything is planed up after it is cut down so accuracy has never been a problem. I have a Festool Kapex for cross cuts and a big MFT style table for dealing with sheets and panels. This combination has served me well but I think a decent table saw will move things forward.

My friend has a Minimax SC3 panel saw that I really like and that is what I have been looking out for secondhand but do I need a sliding panel saw? I don't do much with panels it's mainly solid wood so I am thinking a rip saw with a sliding carriage might be better for me?

What are the pros and cons of each?

A scoring blade would be nice but I would hardly ever need it.

I always think the sliding panel saws seem to have bigger gaps round the blade that thin off cuts might go down?

A 4 inch deep cut would be handy.

I will still probably cut up full sheets with my tracksaw whichever I get.

I will be getting or making an over head guard so I can lower the riving knife for cutting tenon shoulders etc.

Anyone got experience of both types of saw that can give me advice?

Many thanks, Doug

 

[Jamied]

Hi Doug
I have a Sedgewick TA315 with the sliding carriage which ive used for years to cut 8 x 4 sheets easily,
however since I built my 8 x 4 mft table 6 months ago ive found myself doing all my panel cutting on that and mainly use the table saw for ripping as its far supieror for that task than the festool tracksaw.
My colleage has a minimax and also uses his tracksaw

 

[deema]

I had a similar dilemma when I bought my latest saw. I’m not focused on either sheet material or solid stuff and needed a saw that could rip 5” and handle c50” of sheet material to cross cut. Most panel saws I’ve used take up a very large foot print and the sliding table makes conventional ripping both difficult and IMO dangerous as you end up stood directly behind the stuff as you push the last bit through.

I don’t like the aluminium table for ripping as I believe it will wear quickly. I know a lot use the sliding carriage for ripping ignoring the fence.

You can’t I don’t believe and I my experience cut really thin stuff on a panel saw as you can’t make a zero clearance plate.

A sliding table saw has the potential for the panel to drag on the stationary table ruining the cut. Some tables are slightly raised to overcome this. Tables often are cumbersome, difficult to remove / store when not in use or when stored on the saw limit ripping width.

I stumbled on the SCM SI 15F. For me it’s the perfect saw that has the ability to cross cut 50”, c5 1/2” rip capacity, scoring blade that can be dropped below the table when not used and all cast iron tables that are flush when used as a conventional rip saw. It’s foot print isn’t very big and build quality is phenomenal.

They don’t seem to have been very popular in the day and don’t sell for much money secondhand when they come up. However, for a general shop they are IMO ideal

 

[custard]

do I need a sliding panel saw? I don't do much with panels it's mainly solid wood so I am thinking a rip saw with a sliding carriage might be better for me?

Interesting question. I think sliding tables have a more modern image, and for panel work and crosscuts I'd probably judge them as having the edge. But when it comes to traditional ripping in solid timber a slider wouldn't be my preferred choice. Two possible minor exceptions are when it comes to ripping the wane from waney edged boards, I like being able to quickly cramp the board to the slider,

Also for tapered rips (for stuff like table legs), I do something similar which can be useful.

However, when you extend this strategy of mounting the workpiece on the slider for general ripping, then it becomes more of a faff than simply setting the fence on a traditional table saw and just getting on with the job.

Regarding ripping smaller/thinner components on a slider. There are solutions, but they're not cheap. I use an Aigner Vectral which pretty much removes any risk, but it's a pricey accessory.

What I've seen in my own and other workshops is that when the main saw is a slider, it's astonishing how little ripping you end up doing on the table saw. Without consciously planning it, you just end up using the bandsaw for most solid timber rips. However, even though that's do-able for furniture makers, I guess for joiners it would be a non starter.

 

[doctor Bob]

a 100mm / 4" deep cut would require a 400mm blade normally, mine will do a 110mm cut with a 400 on but I normally cut with a 300 which will do about 60mm

Most entry level panel saws won't take a 400 blade.

I really only cut panels on mine, I'm lucky I have a big fixed rip saw as well for solid.

 

[katellwood]

a 100mm / 4" deep cut would require a 400mm blade normally, mine will do a 110mm cut with a 400 on but I normally cut with a 300 which will do about 60mm

Most entry level panel saws won't take a 400 blade.

I really only cut panels on mine, I'm lucky I have a big fixed rip saw as well for solid.

don't know about other machines but my felder cuts 103mm (4") with a 315mm blade

 

[PAC1]

If you have a slider they take a very large footprint so you need to have the space. You might find yourself reconsidering the mft tracksaw solution if you get a slider because one of the true benefits of a slider is the incredibly accurate and square sheet cutting ability. Once set up you can cut cut a sheet to an accuracy of less than half a mm. It is also very easy to use. I can cut a sheet of 18mm ply or mdf just by pushing the slider with one finger. The set up for repeat cuts is quick and accurate.
As for ripping I have a similar FELDER to Custard’s but use mine with a traditional rip fence very regularly. It means you have to remove the crosscut arm for the slider and lock the slider. Also you have to walk around the slider.
I recently discovered that you can cut the bevel on door cills by clamping the cill to the slider and then tilt the saw and push. A quick plane up with a hand plane and you have a door cill. Much quicker than on the spindle.

 

[Peter Sefton]

Hi Doug
I had the Hammer K3 Winner for years a really good saw. It stayed very accurate or was very easy to adjust when required. The 315mm blade was capable of cutting 102mm high but would cut out if ripping deep Oak etc, but no problem I just did the bigger stuff on the bandsaw. I didn't have a scoring saw but I do on my felder, hardly ever use it. Scoring saws cut small rebates which can look like gaps when assembled so I use a base board and cut through it, far cleaner for veneer and solid work. If I were making kitchens then I am sure the scoring unit would be required.

I didn't have a Dado head but do now on my Felder, the Dado spindle must be a factory spec. The Felder Dado sets are very expensive, I have had some 200mm ones produced for the larger Felder saws and am working on new 150mm ones for the Hammer and smaller Felder machines.

The overhead guard is useful if you are cutting Dados a long way from the fence but otherwise I would prefer to use the smaller (free) riving knife crown guard for most work. We have other workshop guards we make up for cutting tenon shoulders or if we were to do grooves / rebates. You can also buy the Aigner Saw Boy to act as a guard but out wooden works just fine.

http://www.martin-usa.com/Features/sawboy/?ajax

The sliding tables come in different lengths and can be removed when not in use. You are more than welcome to come and see my felder and talk over the Hammer.

Cheers Peter

 

[Beau]

I went down the panel saw rout thinking I would end up doing a lot of sheet work but that was not the case but there is always some to do. The cross cutting on the Felder is incredibly precise much more so than I could achieve on my old Multico table saw. What I did not take in when buying the Felder is the max crosscut in achieved with the fence on the opposite side of the crosscut carriage to what I was used to. I dont like having to move the fence on the carriage for different tasks. Would rather do it all just pushing the panel with the fence (hope that makes sense). Didn't go for a scoring saw and never missed it. A quality sharp blade can do a nigh on perfect job. Recently got a Makita tracksaw but the finish it leaves does no compete with what you get off the Felder so not a viable alternative IMO but handy for getting panels down to manageable sizes. On occasion I would like a slot in the table for jigs but not a deal breaker. I rarely rip on the Felder and leave that task to the bandsaw. There are always compromises to be made regardless.

 

[custard]

Bit of an aside, but here's an interesting puzzle.

Tom McLaughlin is an American furniture maker who writes for Fine Woodworking. You can learn more about him here,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8XE3vvDbKc

He uses a sliding table saw, it's actually a Felder but it could be any slider. The puzzle is that he's chosen to build a jig that looks for all the world like the shop made cross cut sled you might use on a traditional table saw.

In this photo he's using it with a dado stack, but I'm sure I've seen him use a similar sled with regular blades. The question is why, what extra benefit does he get from the sled rather than just using the slider?

 

[PAC1]

The only benefit is you get an accurate cut location. As you will know on the felder there is a bit of a no mans land between the slider and the blade. So if you are cutting to a line rather than a dimension you have to check the first of the batch and then set the fence stop.

 

[Peter Sefton]

The only benefit is you get an accurate cut location. As you will know on the felder there is a bit of a no mans land between the slider and the blade. So if you are cutting to a line rather than a dimension you have to check the first of the batch and then set the fence stop.

Or use a piece of waste material below or behind the piece being cut, place it on fix with a cramp and cut away. Exact positioning and no breakout!

 

[katellwood]

Just my two penneth. I also have a felder similar to custards et al.

Mine does not have a scoring blade and on the odd occasion that I need an accurate cut on the underside for say one cut and do not want to place a piece underneath I clamp the piece being cut to the slider and push the slider fully forward past the blade. I then set the height of the blade to approx 2mm so it acts as a scoring blade. turn on and pull the slider back over the blade (my riving knife is set approx 2mm lower then the top of the blade) this acts as a scoring blade as the blade is cutting into the material at the start of the cut. once fully pulled back I wind up the blade and complete the cut. I know its long winded and you have to remove the crown guard but the benefit is that by using the same blade for scoring and cutting there is no small rebate as Peter suggests and in my experience the cut is very clean on the exit side i.e. no breakout.

Having said all that i very rarely cut melamine faced materials only veneered boards and being a one man band find it easier to take a saw to the material as opposed to the material to the saw therefore for initial breaking down I use a track saw then the felder when the pieces are more managable

 

[PAC1]

The only benefit is you get an accurate cut location. As you will know on the felder there is a bit of a no mans land between the slider and the blade. So if you are cutting to a line rather than a dimension you have to check the first of the batch and then set the fence stop.

Or use a piece of waste material below or behind the piece being cut, place it on fix with a cramp and cut away. Exact positioning and no breakout!

Peter, I was not meaning that was what I did. It was an explanation as to why someone might use a sled on a felder.

 

[deema]

I’m intrigued by the suggestion that a scoring blade creates a void on assembly. There are two types of scoring blade, the conical version and the blade that uses spaces to set it’s width precisely. From my own experience the shimmed scoring blade I find is by far the best solution. My scoring blade is set exactly to the width of the kerf of the blade. There is no ridge, or variation in the cut that can be felt on either side. I usually set the scorer height to about 2mm, or the thickness of the veneer plus 1mm. I use it on almost all panel material except MDF.

There are few things that a good scoring blade has to have for it to be useful IMO.
1. It can be withdrawn easily under the table when not used. Some require the blade to be removed.
2. The height must easily be adjustable, and a set height should have some form of stop for repeatability (essential if you prefer conical scoring blades)
3. Easy lateral adjustment to enable the scorer to produce good stuff either side of the blade with no step. Some systems are very crude and don’t allow very precise setting.
4. Independant switch on of the scorer. I prefer from a safety perspective that the scorer can only be switched on after the main blade has been started and switching off either independently or when the main blade is switched off. I personally wouldn’t use a Saw where the scorer can be switched on Independant of the main blade. Equally I wouldn’t want a scorer that is belt driven off the main blade, I want to be able to turn it on only when I want it on.

I have found that poor scoring units often lead to them not being used as they are a faff to setup and use. A good system enables truly clean cuts to be achieved at a quality level that no other type of Saw can achieve.

 

[Doug71]

Thanks for all the replies guys, some useful stuff there.

Interesting about the scoring blades. Many of the second hand machines I have looked at say "scoring blade missing" or "scoring blade drive belt missing" so I guess a lot never get used unless you do loads of mfc or veneered panels.

Am leaning towards a rip saw with sliding carriage at the moment but will see what comes up.

Thanks, Doug

 

[Peter Sefton]

The Startrite looks Ok might be worth considering.

http://www.yandles.co.uk/startrite-ts1- ... ame/p19968

Cheers Peter

 

[Doug71]

The Startrite looks Ok might be worth considering.

http://www.yandles.co.uk/startrite-ts1- ... ame/p19968

Cheers Peter

Thank you Peter, that is the type of thing I am thinking of or something like this

https://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-i ... h-ax649822

Does anybody have any opinions on either?

Can anyone give me an idea of price of the Hammer K3 Winner Comfort (if that is the one with the outrigger) to save me going through all the faff with Felder, or do you have to sign something saying you won't divulge the price when you buy one, lol.

Doug

 

[Beau]

Big difference in weight between the two which tells a story.

 

[custard]

Can anyone give me an idea of price of the Hammer K3 Winner Comfort (if that is the one with the outrigger)

The K3 Comfort (with outrigger) is £4254 ex vat. This is as per the Winner but with an outrigger and the mitre guide indexing. The cut length is 2050mm

The K3 Winner is £3029 ex vat. This has the scoring saw and can take a dado blade. The sliding table gives a cut length of 1300mm, but can be increased to the 2050mm of the Comfort via the extras list although without the outrigger. For what it's worth I run a Felder saw without an outrigger for day to day work, I only add the outrigger for breaking down full sheets of ply or MDF.

The K3 Basic is £2755 ex vat. It has the same 4" capacity as the more expensive K3 saws, but the sliding table cut length is 865mm, again you can increase this up to 2050mm via extras, and you can also add a dado facility and a scoring saw.

There are some useful savings when they sell off their display machines.