Table saw fence length

[Steve Maskery]

Well that can help for ripping, but it introduces other problems.
Any cut where your workpiece is on the left of the blade rather than the right then has the back teeth closer to the wood, not further away.

Furthermore, in your example, if I understand it correctly, you have the back of the fence 1mm to the right c.f. the front of the fence, is that right? Well let us say that your fence is 600mm long and it is 150mm from the front of your blade to the back. The fence is then only 0.25mm clear at the back tooth. That is 10 thou. Wood can move an awful lot more than that as it is cut.

Long fences have their place for some tasks. I couldn't use my tenon jig without one, for example. In fact, cutting tenons vertically is a good example of where toeing out the far end is not a helpful thing to do, I want clean faces on both sides of my tenons, not just the RH face.

But for ripping, a short fence set straight is the best option.

S

 

[wcndave]

I am on both sides of the fence with this one, excuse the pun.

For cross cutting, using the fence as a guide you have to make the fence shorter, here I use a block attached to fence as a guide.

For ripping or cutting panels I wish I had a longer fence.

What I am finding is that as I get to the end I have no support and the piece toes out increasing kickback and at best making my cut inaccurate.

Clearly very bad to have pinching in any case, however with a straight fence and a riving knife you are ok as long asyou are sensible.

I'd rather a long fence default and not use it for cross cuts than what I have now and getting trapezoid panels with larger cuts.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

 

[Sawyer]

My table saw came with long fence as standard. A bad idea, as I work mostly in solid timber and do a lot of ripping. The solution was to make my own wooden short fence which clamps on to the long alu. one. The thickness of this gives clearance after the cut - effectively the same as having a proper short fence. The problems I'd been having with the full length fence instantly disappeared.

An easy modification. I'll post a picture when I get time.

 

[wcndave]

What problems have you been having with the full length?

I have problems with the short length, including safety issues, and when I see the murricans and their full length fences i get very jealous...

 

[heimlaga]

I suspect this is a case of cultural difference. Most Americans are usually preoccupied with small single phase table saws and often they start working from ready planed wood in rather small dimensions while people like Jack (tool 613) and I run old industrial machines with many times the power and start working from big slabs that come directly from the sawmill and sometimes have plenty of internal stresses in them.
There is a huge difference between the torque of a the typical 1 hp single phase table saw that the typical Joe American has in his hobby workshop and the "little" 5hp three phase saw that is on my combination machine which actually is on the small side for some jobs that I do. Where a small saw just stalls a bigger saw will kick back with enough force to throw a 2x6" 10 metres away. I think that is the reson why they haven't run out of fertile men in America despite the widespread use of long fences.

The saw on my combination machine has a fence that ends a little past the arbour of the saw. In 1957 people were less aware of safety matters and this seemingly was the standard on most saws. In my humble oppinion this is an appropriate lenght for most jobs but not for all.
When I rip or resaw big slabs and cants and orther thick materilals that are likely to have internal stresses and to pinch the blade I clamp a shorter home made 10mm thick iron plate to the front of the fence to act as a short fence. When I use the fence as a guide to determine the lenght of parts that are crosscut on the sliding table I use the same short fence attachment. If I was to cut tennons on the table saw or If I worked a lot of sheet materials I would probably make a long fence attachment as well.

This was the way I was taught to work in vocational school when I trained to become a joiner. We had an old teacher who was very safety minded but not always following the book. The saw we used was very big and fairly modern with an aluminium faced fence that could be set further back or forth. He constantly reminded us of always setting the lenghtwise position of the fence correctly for the work we were about to do. If we didn't he got angry and then told about some very nasty accidents he had witnessed in his youth before this kind of fences vere introduced.

 

[wcndave]

Could be horses for courses here. Let me show you what my problem is with short fence for ripping, or for largish cross -cuts, say panels for kitchen cabinets, so 60 x 90.

Here at the start of the cut, i can push against the fence to keep everything straight.

Here, at the end there is no way to keep it straight.

Unless one can determine the exact spot on the workpiece that will perfectly balance friction of the bed, plus the rotational forces, plus the forces of the blade, that piece is going to wander one way or another.

This could be dangerous, and I set my riving knife as close as possible to blade to mitigate that, and it means i don't get straight square cuts.

I tried to make Maskery's plane iron holding jig at the weekend and the result was a disaster because the tolerances required were not met in terms of straightness.

Now heimlaga, if you are cutting rougher stock, that may have larger stresses, then you are not expecting a finished straight edge at this point, so a short fence is safer and better.

For cross cutting boards, a long fence will result in binding, and can be dangerous.

For cutting panels, I believe a long rip fence is in order. As long as you have riving knife, possibly a downforce featherboard, and you ensure your fence does not pinch in on the blade. These panels are nearly always plywood, so I expect no stress forces either.

So depending on what you are doing, I would opine that a long OR a short fence may be the best and safest choice.

 

[marcros]

Your short fence is very short. Typically they come to the middle of the blade.

 

[wcndave]

Yes, mine does, however there are lots of comments and videos that state that first tooth is all you need.

for cross cutting I agree.

I still get wander with a fence that goes to the far end of the blade, it just shaves some extra at the end, you hear that the cut is finished, and just as you push the piece out you get a little brushing of teeth, which is in fact the dangerous part...

 

[Paddywack]

I just measured the run out from the back of my long fence and it is about .5mm not 1mm as I said before, I have never had kickback. I have a sliding table for x cutting and must say that is the best way to x cut on a table saw that I have used.
I don't get the short fence for ripping! what supports the work piece after it leaves the fence, someone show me a video of a sheet of ply being ripped on these short fences and I might be convinced, with my long fence there is always some thing to reference on right through to the last bit of the cut and my fence extends 450mm past the back tooth of the blade. Just my opinion on a method that has worked for me for sometime.
Very interesting thread.

 

[wcndave]

Yes, exactly what I was trying to say.

However for cross cut, the below picture is very dangerous. So I just put a stop block in the right place clamped to the fence.

(Mitre fence / sliding table removed for clarity)

 

[Paddywack]

I may be stating the obvious but how many people check the Splitter when they change Blades, not all blades are the same thickness. (homer)

 

[blackrodd]

WCNDAVE, You say that you have to push against the fence! Sounds as if you're fence isn't aligned to the saw blade.
If you have a gap between the timber "stock"being cut this would be why.
When I'm ripping I put a false fence on and because the main fence is parallel i shove a piece of fag packet card , upright at the gullet end to "lead" slightly into the saw, maybe 8 or 10 thou, just enough for the saw to work easily.
Easiest way, get a piece of, say straight 3"x 1" that's been through the thicknesser both ways.
Mains switch off! align the timber with the saw blade,at a tooth on the front and a tooth at the back/riving knife end with both teeth being used set to the right.
clamp in place making sure that saw teeth are "kissing" the 3"x1" front and back.
gently bring the fence over just short of the timber and as you lock the fence into position, watch carefully if the locking action is altering the line or gap.
If adjustments are required, then make a false fence and pack accordingly with the aforementioned B&H fag packet.
Once you know how much, if any, packing is required, you can always taper the fence in the planer. Job done!
Regards Rodders

 

[tool613]

The sliding rip plate fence is simply that. you adjust it fro and aft depending on the rip cut. To be clear this is not a sheet stock position or wide cut rip . the plate is set just behind the gullet for narrow strip ripping,

see here that the work stops being feed after the last tooth cuts. no need for you to control through the blade as there is no where for the wood to get tramped. keeps your hands away for the blade and this surly is the point. Its takes all of a day to brake your bad habits from the long fence ripping techniques that USE JIGS and get used to where the feed pressures are applied for good control and cut with the short fence. Now it goes with out saying your saw is properly calibrated with riving knife and crown and 2 push stick with run off table.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luS0q1GmjxM

jack
English machines

Yes, mine does, however there are lots of comments and videos that state that first tooth is all you need.

for cross cutting I agree.

I still get wander with a fence that goes to the far end of the blade, it just shaves some extra at the end, you hear that the cut is finished, and just as you push the piece out you get a little brushing of teeth, which is in fact the dangerous part...

 

[wcndave]

blackrodd, My fence is perfectly aligned, with perhaps a thou toe out at the end for safety without compromising a straight cut.

I don't push hard against the fence, what I mean is I use the fence to run the wood along. if the fence is short like some suggest, I get a problem at the end like Paddywack says. I too would love to see a video where a plywood panel is cut on short fence to change my mind.

However I have watched hundreds of vids of yanks using high powered saws and a full fence, and I have not heard of problems when the are being sensible.

Of course an silly person can take any set up and make it dangerous.

 

[Steve Maskery]

Dave
Plywood would be cut on a long fence, not a short one. The short fence is for ripping timber, not panel-cutting.
Now about that plane ticket...
S

 

[blackrodd]

Dave
Plywood would be cut on a long fence, not a short one. The short fence is for ripping timber, not panel-cutting.
Now about that plane ticket...
S

Precisely! I do believe this is what we've bin saying.
Regards Rodders

 

[Sawyer]

What problems have you been having with the full length?

I have problems with the short length, including safety issues, and when I see the murricans and their full length fences i get very jealous...

Pinching between the fence and uprising section of the blade (despite the closely set and NEVER removed riving knife). I do plenty of heavy ripping - large oak planks, straight from the sawmill, anything up to 4" thick. Large enough to be difficult to push perfectly straight and often with internal stresses. Once, cutting a particularly large and difficult piece (far too heavy to kick back), I spoiled a good blade by overheating and soon afterwards made my false fence insert. This allows the cut piece to move away from the blade instead of pinching against it because of the fence.

Once the workpiece is beyond the tooth gullets on the top side, the fence's work is done and any extension beyond this point is nothing more than a potential wood trap.

That said, when cutting sheet materials, which are unlikely to pinch the blade, I usually use the full length fence supplied with the machine.

 

[wcndave]

Cutting straight from the sawmill - or any kind of rough cutting i have no problem with short fence. (Personally i use bandsaw for this, i find it easier)
You all agree for sheet goods the long fence is better.
Cross cutting short fence, or no fence, just a stop block.

For finish cutting of real wood, I still find a short fence doesn't quite work for me, the wood wants to turn a corner around the short fence and i get a little extra shaving of the end. sort of side on snipe if you like!

with a riving knife, straight fence, and using a grrrripper which holds it down, and has a toe to prevent it coming back, I still feel quite safe with that. If it doesn't "feel" safe, it's probably not (for me) and I change technique / tool.

 

[tool613]

Dave

What feels safe in not always safe. all the cuts before an accident felt safe! I think you miss the point of what the short fence position is. HSE has come up with what is clearly safe working practice for the industry and with due consideration to guarding. There is no feel safe in there training. These regs were imposed on the industry to reduce injury at the table saw and many other machinery and have done so that's a fact that is well documented. The reg include what a machinery dealer /maker needs for equipment on a machine for it to be safe. The sliding rip plate high low fence is one of them. With in this fence there is a long fence for sheet stock and short fence for ripping reaction timber a low fence for narrow strip and bevel ripping, and high fence for up right work. one is trained in its use and it is drilled into them the safe practice.

The american fixed through bessy stile fence has none of these features yet its toted as the best fence in the world and very safe based on control. This control is to guild the work through the entrapment of blade a fence and this is done so by placing your hand near the blades or to reach through with push stick into the danger zone.. I always ask if the wood was removed very quickly where are my hands? Most armatures and week end wooddorker don't know any better when they were sold the after market bessy long fences and are under the pretense that you can add all kinks of jigs to make cuts safer. The joke is the fence is the main problem. It fouls the crown on narrow strip ripping so how can this be a safer or better fence if it lacks the basic fence functions that have been around for some 30 years , And yes the griper is just another gizmo to continue to use the long fence with its short coming and by it very nature needs the crown removed to allow your hand in the danger zone over top the blade.

If you looking for feels safe your on the right path.

for others that want the facts HSE and the sliding rip plate fence is out there.


http://sawdust.online.fr/Saw/RipFence/en_Fence.php

jack
English machines
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[Paddywack]

I am more confused now than ever, why do I have such a long fence on my table saw, surely the manufacturer doesn't suppose I am only going to do sheet stock and not need a short fence to rip short stock. If I am to slide my big fence back it sticks out in the most awkward place. I am all for education and safety so feel free to point out the proper use of these things, old habits die hard but limbs don't grow back.