Stanley Bailey #5 Spring Cap

[Ttrees]

I don't measure the angle as I have a rest set on a bench grinder.
I'd say its something like 23 to 25 degrees...plenty of irons have it marked on them stating "grind at 25, hone at 30 degrees"

Is the primary bevel getting steep on your iron?

Tom

 

[Dovetaildave]

Hi Steve,
Great photos, way better than anything I've managed to put up here.

I can't see anything obviously wrong there.

I have quite a few differing bevel angles, as long as there is no step (Paul pointed the pencil ) and the sharp bit of blade just passes through the mouth, I can't see it being the grinding or honing angles being the culprit for the lever cap popping out or sliding.

Frog position looks perfect, the two wear marks down by the mouth end look encouraging, leading to believe that blade has even contact down there.

Thinness of the lat Adj isn't a concern apart from its longevity maybe.

"In fact mine are not oiled and I wondered if that might be the issue"...."it does not feel as smooth as I would like" if you haven't oiled the whole plane as Paul does in his video, I'd recommend you do, (so as to reduce wear and make it more pleasant to use). then follow the CB/Bolt checks below.

I just remembered that I once I bought a Stanley No8 C and it arrived with a extra long chipbreaker and the whole thing wouldn't work properly, maybe the lever cap also popped out of position I can't remember right now. A forum member suspected it was a transitional CB (very long length), he (lovely man!) even sent me a chipbreaker to try out and it worked perfectly. I posted it back and I think it might even have gone on to help someone else ?

If its not the CB or Bolt then I'm all out of ideas....so here goes, CB first !

Lets check its the right CB length.
Measuring length of CB using tape measure is from; inside the Lat Adj slot to bottom edge.
I can't find my T5, but can find; Stanley 4 is 92mm, Record 4 1/2 is 95mm, Stanley 5 1/4 is 95mm.(CB's are 3.2mm thick workshop heaven upgrades but length slot to bottom edge is still same). I assume your should be 92 to 95mm, unless someone can give us a better measurement of their no 5 ?

"The other interesting thing I noticed was that I set the screw adjustment so that it was just right (as far as I could tell). And then sometimes when I try to put the cap back on it is way too tight. Does this suggest that my plane might be badly machined?" It suggests to me that the blade and CB combo isn't seated flat against frog every time its assembled.

The blade to CB combination assembly;
(Before assembling, you must place a pencil (something similar) under the toe of the plane's sole, to allow any blade to protrude through the mouth and not be stopped by the table top, thus unseating the blade combo).

Is the short flat bolt bolt holding blade to CB combination, located into the recess in the frog properly?
The blade and CB combination lays flat against the frog?
The lat Adj allowing it to wiggle sideways ?(Oscillating motion)
The wheel moving it back and forth ?(Reciprocating motion)
Extend blade till it just protrudes.
Snap lever cap into place, and cross your fingers.

Does problem still persist? If the answer is yes......my last shot is to question the bolt size:

Shank and head of bolt diameter measurement with verniers are;

Stanley 4 is Shank 6.6mm, head (slight countersink) is 10.4mm.
Record 4 1/2 is Shank 6mm, panhead is 11.8mm.
Stanley 5 1/4 is shank 6.6mm, head (slight countersink) is 10.4mm.

Assemble as previously above, make sure the bolt is tight enough, allowing the leaver cap to snap down into locking position, if it doesn't then loosen a 16th of a turn until the lever snaps down.

Phew, I hope this has found the fault, or at least ruled out a few of the variables.

Regards,
Dave

 

[ED65]

Just wanted to echo what's been said, nice work on the photos. I'm not sure they bring us any closer to a firm diagnosis, but the second does show black plastic handles and the cheesy pressed-steel lateral adjuster which confirms your plane is a Stanley of the current type. But at least it has a cast Y-yoke which some people esteem

There's one thing you haven't photographed which might show what's to blame and that's the top end of the lever cap, showing the profile of the lever itself. Paul Sellers covered on his site a few years ago that in some modern planes the underside of the lever cap can be machined to the wrong shape to work as it should. Here's the page with his fix for it that might apply here, https://paulsellers.com/2016/02/import-planes-part-iii/

 

[ED65]

With the way it is set, I can slide a steel rule down the frog without it bashing into the plane mouth.

That's perfect. Most people have it set this way, and then basically forget that the frog is adjustable. That's entirely appropriate BTW, as for many planes there's never a need to move the frog from this position because use of the cap iron plus varying the shaving thickness does everything most people require, with no needed contribution from the mouth being closed up. (More on this in a future thread if you like.)

I am waiting for one or two things to come in the post and then I would be able to regrind the iron.

To put a camber on it? You don't need to regrind for subtler cambers, you can create a cambered edge easily just during honing.

Only if you want to put in a really pronounced camber, to turn your no. 5 into a 'roughing jack', do you really need to create an all-new curved primary bevel and even that can be done manually if necessary, e.g. on a very coarse diamond plate (<250), a coarse Crystolon or equivalent, or some quality 80-grit abrasive paper/cloth.

 

[StraightOffTheArk]

Sorry if this has been mentioned before, a small countersink on the top of the lever cap slot might help, and try using a washer to test whether the head of the bolt is too small.

Good luck with it - it's always nice to see tools brought into working order,

SOTA

 

[Steve Milne]

Wow. Thanks again for all the helpful suggestions. I may try regrinding the iron (it says it should be at 25 degrees on the iron itself). However, even though this plane is more than a decade old, it has never been used, and the iron will be as it was shipped.

I should explain that the plane was bought brand-new for me maybe 15+ years ago. However, it was around this time that children arrived on the scene and I found I had no real time for woodworking. In addition, I was more of a 'machine' guy (too much Norm?) and I rarely used things like hand-planes. Whenever I tried using them the results were pretty awful since I had no idea what I was doing. Kids have moved on, and I have retired, so I am trying to sort out my workshop again, and part of this plan involves getting more familiarity with hand tools and so on. The amount of info on You Tube is incredible (if variable in quality), but the stuff that chaps like Paul Sellars produces is quite inspirational.

So, to respond to some of the comments I have had:

1) I could regrind the bevel, but, as I say, it is in new condition and, since I have never done this before, I may make things worse. I now have a honing guide and I will try to regrind/sharpen some time this week. I'll watch a few You Tube videos first though

2) I don't think there is anything wrong with the lever-cap cam (as shown in that Paul Sellars blog page). I have taken a photograph of mine and it does not look to have the 'B&Q issue' that he mentions. But what do you think?

3) I went through the Sellars set up video again and tried to copy what he did as carefully as I could. With the addition of oil, I think the set up did become a little easier and things didn't seem quite as 'gritty' as they had done before. I advanced the blade and adjusted with the lever such that equal amounts of blade seemed to be sticking out of the plane at each side, The blade seemed correct to me. Then I backed off the blade a little and (with pencil underneath the toe so that the blade wouldn't catch), I tried maybe 4 or 5 advance/retract actions. The lever cap had slid, as you can see (the blue line was put on after set up and was hard against the screw prior to the adjustment and advance/retract actions):

Interestingly, even though the blade was aligned correctly 'level' with the sole (apologies if I'm using the wrong term), it was not remotely parallel to the mouth. See:

Please excuse the blue lines. These were put on when I had a mad idea of trying to flatten the sole (as per some videos I have seen). But I was undone somewhat by the lack of a long-enough flat surface and a shortness of sand-paper :shock:

I would like ot try to get this working, but I wonder if it is just too 'out of whack' for a beginner such as me to put right.

Thanks again for the interest and suggestions. I have learned a great deal from them.

 

[Sheffield Tony]

Either the iron is not seated properly, or the frog is on the p**s.

I suspect that the issue might be down to detail of the shape of that kidney shaped hole in the lever cap. It's not clear to me what would stop it walking out as the iron is adjusted. It seems quite big.

Edited to add: I think sole flattening and iron re- grinding are distractions until you have solved the main problem.

 

[Steve Milne]

Yes. I didn’t want to put a load of (old) man-hours into it until I could be sure It would work. In the meantime, I will try and source a Stanley #4 (for example) just to make sure that it is the tool, and not me!

 

[AndyT]

I suspect that the issue might be down to detail of the shape of that kidney shaped hole in the lever cap. It's not clear to me what would stop it walking out as the iron is adjusted. It seems quite big.

I agree. On a good plane, the hole at the top is neatly circular; yours looks like it might not be. There is no taper on the hole itself.
The size is critical. The underside of the screw is slightly conical (like an ordinary woodscrew) and sized so that the cone centres it on the upper circle, even though about a quarter of its rim is "missing" at the bottom.
It could be that the screw on yours does not fit well enough on the lever cap.

Short of replacing them both, you could try tightening the screw a little bit with the lever flat and everything assembled, even if that makes it impossible to flip the lever without slackening the screw off again.

If that works, you can decide whether to put up with it, look for better replacement parts, or a better plane.

It's often said that late C20th Stanley planes were not as good as older ones. Your plane may be evidence of that. FWIW, mine is only slightly older - 1970s, before they started marking G model numbers on the body - and it looks tidier than yours and works properly.

 

[Bm101]

No expert so you've been warned.
Unless money is an absolute barrier I'd sell it for a buy it now price on ebay. Then buy a decent age one. You should be able to get £15 for that put in it's an unwanted present in the description and hope some poor unlucky soul buys it. Repent your sins then buy a decent old 4 by purchasing from a reputable restorer/seller such as but not inclusive of https://www.oldtoolstore.co.uk/stanley- ... 4962-p.asp or fleabay of course. I'll even sell you a vintage dated US 4 1/2 that need loads of cosmetic work lol. No. No I won't.
Unless you really want one.

This one is not available atm but there are good sellers like Tooltique out there. You will pay more. But quite often not a lot more and you have it set up by someone who has a reasonable knowledge until you have that experience yourself if indeed you are short of that experience.
To simplify, there's a school of thought that all new planes are rubbish. All old planes are perfect. That's nonsense of course but if you look at plane production standards you can see why the assumption is made that older must be better. Production standards were better. No doubt about it. There's whole Reasons for it. Truth as far as I can see is you have a better chance of finding a good user with an older plane rather than a newer plane. But production standards only dropped exponentially in much later years.Even then some good tools must have been made.
Personally my mantra has always been to reduce the percentages. Just my take on it of course. Also I like a low front knob.
Hope it helps a little.
Regards
Chris

Edited (twice!) for politeness sake because of poor use of English. More shame on me. And once for grammar ffs. :shock:

 

[Nigel Burden]

Just a thought, would it be possible to make up a dished washer to pack out the hole in the lever cap. It would be a cheap option which, if it didn't work, would cost next to nothing. As others have said, that hole does look oversized.

Nigel.

 

[ED65]

I don't think there is anything wrong with the lever-cap cam (as shown in that Paul Sellars blog page). I have taken a photograph of mine and it does not look to have the 'B&Q issue' that he mentions. But what do you think?

Looks okay. I took a side view of the levers on the three Stanley planes I have here at the moment so I could more easily compare like for like, while the 'keel' on yours is deeper its shape looks all right for it to function properly.

I have a feeling this does narrow down the cause to the shape of the hole in the main body of the lever cap as some have already said – just a bit too much material was removed when the casting was being ground clean in the factory.

...I wonder if it is just too 'out of whack' for a beginner such as me to put right.

I think it might be. I wouldn't normally be the type to suggest giving up on it (most things are solvable, and you learn something each time) but in addition to the slipping issue there now appears to be a problem with the way the iron is bedded.

While both can be fixed or worked around I'm sure, at the end of the day you're still looking at a plane with injection-moulded plastic handles. If you want this to be a regular user it's likely those won't cut the mustard and replacements could set you back the same as a complete plane!

 

[Nigel Burden]

I don't think I would give up on it, but the hole in the lever cap is too large for the screw. As I said before, I would try using a dished washer to tighten up the fit. When compared to my two 1960s Stanley no 4s that hole is large.

The plastic handles, although not the best, should be ok if you're not abusing the plane. My first plane was a Stanley SB3 with plastic handles and a blade that adjusts like a spoke shave, and that works ok.

If I were you, I would try fixing it.

Nigel.

 

[Steve Milne]

Thanks again everyone. I have bought an older Stanley #4 and will use that to compare with the problem plane. That might give me a better idea as to what might need to be done to the #5. Does anyone know if the spring cap for the #4 would fit the #5 or is it a different size (apologies if that's a stupid question)?

 

[AndyT]

Yes, the 4 and 5 have the same 2" iron, cap iron and lever cap.

 

[Steve Milne]

Excellent. Well I'll soon find out if it's me or it, then!

 

[Bedrock]

Steve
Second hand tool dealers often have spare frogs, usually at under £5, also lever caps. I don't where you are located, but there are a couple in West Sussex from whom I have bought, but it could provide a cheap alternative, without hard labour.
I have a couple of spare 5's, and you are welcome to one of them.

Mike

 

[Steve Milne]

Wow Mike that would be great. I’m in the Notts/Lincs area. I would be happy to pay you afew quid for the cap and would also cover postage. I can PayPal you the moolah. PM me if you’re happy and we can sort out the details.

Thanks

Steve

 

[Bedrock]

Steve

Will do PM, probably have to be tomorrow, although I have family in Nottingham, so it's not outer space.

Mike

 

[Bedrock]

Steve

I PM'd you on Wednesday, but can't see any reply. I have dug out a spare no.5 frog and can post when I have your address.