Solid Kitchen door job

[Alex]

Hi all,
I've been asked to completely redo a kitchen which wouldn't be to special but this will be the first time I've had to make my own solid wood(Hardwood) doors. I've done a fair few cabinets in softwood through the years but i have to admit i'm feeling a bit apprehensive working with hardwood. :?
I've done extensive building work for this customer in the past so i have a high rep to uphold.
Now 'The Brief' was along the line of they've been looking at kitchens for a while now and haven't seen anything good. I got to admit there is very little choice out there, it's all Shaker, Gloss or wrapped mdf. And there existing kitchen is Oak Cathedral doors way to dark and grubby.
So what i can gather is they want a door design between contemporary design and classic design in a light wood. So I propose Steamed Beech wood rail and style door with a rectangle raised panel. The same for the draws only i'm going to halve the rails to get a 80mm raised panel in on the narrow draws. Anyone understanding this babble? I'm planning on making a sample this weekend.Any thoughts on design would be appreciated.
Now the problem, i've had no experiance with raised panels. I bought freud pro raised panel router bit set few years ago and didn't use it .So i dug it out it has 3" cutter and combination cutter. The problem is they state max 12000 for 3" and 16000rpm for the comb but my old Makita 3612 has no speed control 22 000rpm, real brute with no soft start. Can anything be done?
I've also got a combination machine with spindle moulder on it. I have 90mm euro block which i have the NO.97 40mm cutter for rail and style. But no raised panel cutters. I don't want to break the bank but has anyone got any recomendations for spindle moulder raised panel cutter?

Also finishing beech? I usaully do three coats acrylic polyurthane Satin and rub fine paste wax on with 0000 steel wool for satin rubbed finish. But would this be any good on beech.

So many questions......I know, just got a lot on the go at the moment.

Anyway i keep you all posted if you guys want maybe some progress pics.

Alex

 

[JFC]

I can tell you from experience DO NOT USE THE 3" RAISED PANEL CUTTER UNLESS YOU CAN CONTROL THE SPEED !!!!!!!!!!! I had my router in for a service half way through using one and forgot to check the speed when i got it back . The result was a 3" cutter taking off out of the collet and flying across the workshop at 20 000 RPM ! luckily i heard something was not right and stepped back from the router table before it shot out .
You can buy a set of cutters and limiters for around £20 -£30 that will fit in a block to do raised panels on a spindle moulder .

 

[Scrit]

Now the problem, I've had no experiance with raised panels. I bought Freud Pro raised panel router bit set few years ago and didn't use it .So I dug it out it has 3" cutter and combination cutter. The problem is they state max 12,000 for 3" and 16000rpm for the comb but my old Makita 3612 has no speed control 22,000rpm, real brute with no soft start. Can anything be done?

Not with that router. Trying to run a cutter designed for 12k rpm at nearly twice the speed is really an accident waiting to happen, as JFC may be able to tell you :-#

I've also got a combination machine with spindle moulder on it. I have 90mm Euro block which I have the No.97 40mm cutter for rail and style. But no raised panel cutters. I don't want to break the bank but has anyone got any recomendations for spindle moulder raised panel cutter?

A proper panel raising cutter block is out of reach as they are very expensive, but yes, I can make several -

Option 1: Cutter set #100 which will generate a smooth panel with about a 1in wide edge treatment. There are two useable profiles on this cutter set:

Option 2: (Below) Mark off the panels and field them with a jack plane. This just basically means putting a shallow chamfer on them.

Option 3: (Above) Cut a wide rebate on the top of the panel and work the inside edge of the rebate with a chamfer, round-over or small ovolo bit

Option 4: Use a fancier bit such as a #79 (the upper profile here):

Option 5: Use another fancier bit such as a #89 (again the upper profile here):

If the edge profile isn't deep enough then the rear face of the panel will need to be relieved with a rebate cutter to make the tongue thinner (and a #100 set can do both sides). The only thing I'm not sure about is whether or not the style of these suggestions isn't too traditional

Hope that's of assistance

Edit: B*mm*r - JFC beat me to it - curses! The Broadband crashed yet again....... :lol:

Scrit

 

[Benchwayze]

Hi Alex,

For my money, I would use hardwood anytime against softwood. It's just so much more precise and provided your tools are 'wicked-sharp' you'll find it easier to work.

As for raising /fielding panels, I have a panel cutter, for my Elu 1/2" router, but I never fancied using it. I run a small, straight router cutter all around the panel to define the field. Then I use hand planes to work the slope, doing the end grain first.

I have a Stanley panel/rebate-plane, with the open sides, to work right against the edge of the field, but a shoulder plane will do the job too..
There's a good description on a site, that I will look up for you.

http://www.shavings.net/RAISED_PANELS.HTM

try that link. It's interesting if nothing else!


Good Luck
John

 

[Alex]

I thought the router was out. I didn't like the look of that 3" cutter, I think I'll try sell it maybe ebay. :?
My only worry when i looked at the No.100 knives is that the field will be to small, 25mm minus about 5mm side going into the rails/styles that only leaves 20mm profile exposed.
As for hand planing, i really would like to have ago but until i get around to building a proper work bench with dogs i haven't got a way to hold the work piece. I saw an excellent raised panel plane at Steve's do, I think it was Philly's.
The other thought was to try the table saw with the blade at slight angle and the work piece vertical. Finishing off with plane and sanding. Anyone tried this? The only thought is this will leave a taper end going into the Styles, will this be ok?
Just had a look at axminster and they do a three wing raised panel cutter for about £70. Don't know what they're like though, here is the link.
http://www.axminster.co.uk//images/prod ... 861_xl.jpg

Scrit, is there a profile knife that i could do a vertical cut with, i've seen them for routers?

Know for a reshuffle to store the timber arriving tomorrow.:lol:
Wood has been planed to regular 26mm and is described as been euro kiln dried prime steamed Beech. From Nixon knowles, Notts. The sample needs knocking up quick but the rest of the wood will have about two weeks rest.

Does anyone know a good place to buy just kitchen carcasses, my usaul kitchen supplier only does complete units with doors. They''ll need to be oak or natural grain effect. I don't really fancy making them from scratch! but can if have to. It's just won't the materials cost more than off the shelf stuff? :?

Thanks for all the input.

Alex :lol:

 

[Paul Chapman]

As for hand planing, i really would like to have ago but until i get around to building a proper work bench with dogs i haven't got a way to hold the work piece.

Alex, how can you get through life without a workbench :shock: :lol: If you want something quick and easy to tide you over till you make a proper one, just glue together three bits of 18mm MDF (preferably lipped), drill some 3/4" holes, screw on a batten underneath and clamp it in a Workmate like this

You can fit a lightweight vice (this one is a Record #57 woodcraft) and drill the wooden face for a Veritas bench dog, or use the Veritas Wonder Pups and dogs. I use this as a supplementary bench and assembly table. Not as good as my proper bench, but it does the job.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[BigMac]

A google for "panel raising table saw" will produce lots of unsafe (generally American) examples of how to do it, but it does mean no guards.

B&Q et al do carcass only I'm pretty sure.

These people probably better quality although no personal experience:

http://www.kitchenandbedroomstudio.co.u ... casspp.asp

 

[Neil]

How about a simple angled fence & an ordinary straight bit in the router table?

Or what about a vertical panel raiser? I think they are OK at 22k rpm.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[Scrit]

My only worry when i looked at the No.100 knives is that the field will be to small, 25mm minus about 5mm side going into the rails/styles that only leaves 20mm profile exposed.

On something the size of a kitchen door a 20 to 25mm panel is often adequate. It depends on the desired effect

Is there a profile knife that I could do a vertical cut with, I've seen them for routers?

Yes there are. You could try #003:

which could be used vertically or horizontally (although horizontally will give only a 27mm panel edge unless your machine has a stub spindle and recessed washer type mounting

then there's set #87

and then work the flat land with either a rebate block or a hand plane, however I'm personally less than happy about advising someone to work a profile on the narrow edge of a tall panel (same applies to both spindle and saw bench). Tall narrow panels often found in kitchens can be a bit "tippy" and that combined with the fact that you're machining end grain can make handling break-out at the end of the cut difficult to control on a spindle moulder whereas worked flat a backer board (piece of MDF) can be used as a cross between a push stick, a sliding carraige and a spelch board.

There was a thread a while back which did proffer some other suggestions (for the spindle moulder, that is). If I can find it then I'll post a link

Scrit

 

[tim]

Alex

My first piece of advice would be 'STOP' going down the sample route yet.

This is a worrying quote to read:

Now 'The Brief' was along the line of they've been looking at kitchens for a while now and haven't seen anything good

The reason being that there are a lot of good things out there. This normally translates in two ways.

1. They haven't actually done that much looking.

This is not an unusual situation with customers and the first question I ask is whether they have a scrap book or a pile of kitchen mags. The serious customers always do. If they haven't then either tell them to go and buy some and look through them with you or buy a handful yourself and do the same. That way you will be able to build up a much more accurate picture of what they do or don't like and have got a significantly increased chance of designing them something that they actually want. Maybe worth a trawl through the large number of replacement door companies. You could then show the clients a bunch of them and see what they like. If you go to all the trouble of buying knives etc to make samples, what makes you think that this will be any better in their mind than the hundreds of images of kitchens out there?


2. They have looked and realised that what they want is out of their budget.

This is understandably the more common option and you should think carefully before deciding to take on this kind of commission. I have been caught here before and its never much fun. The reason being that the customer thinks that they are still paying a lot ie at the top of their budget but at the same time you know you are making a heavily discounted kitchen. Frankly a good hardwood faced kitchen should be making you enough money that you could buy a new router without batting an eyelid.


With regard to beech, try British hardwoods - their planed steamed beech is excellent, cost effective and will save you a bunch of hassle. I find the grain of beech a bit boring and tend to only use it for painted work but your finishing technique should still work fine.

On the design I would be wary of putting raised panels in drawer fronts unless they are big drawers since they look clumsy. Bear in mind that panels were originally only used to span larger distances to prevent movement being a problem - narrow drawers will not have that problem.

Apologies if I have said things that you already know but I feel a bit like I am writing to myself four years ago when I first started making cabinets for a living and there are alarm bells ringing for me on this one.

Cheers

Tim

 

[woodbloke]

Alex - interesting thread and lots of sound advice. My 2 euro's worth. I don't favour the traditional raised panel as they IMO are tricky to do accurately, lots of sloping end grain and mitres to clean up and get sharp...... if you can't get the mitres sharp at the panel corners then the whole thing looks poor. Much better in my view to keep it simple and go for solid door panels with just a rebate so a small gap shows, you would only then have to clean up the rebate with a shoulder plane and sandpaper. You could even mould the edge as a cove so its curved. As Tim has said, no need to put a panel into a drawer front
....and be sure that you nail the customer down before starting work, agreed schedules, working drawings, colour washed sketches, samples (timber and the final panel prototype) etc and a 50% deposit before you do anything - Rob

 

[White House Workshop]

I can't remember where I got it from right now but I have a VERTICAL raised panel cutter for my router. Instead of being 3" across it is less than 1", and it's about 2" tall. A lot less cutter to be whizzing around at high speed, and adjustment is by moving the fence rather than the router...

 

[Scrit]

I can't remember where I got it from right now but I have a VERTICAL raised panel cutter for my router. Instead of being 3" across it is less than 1", and it's about 2" tall. A lot less cutter to be whizzing around at high speed, and adjustment is by moving the fence rather than the router...

It is, however, easier and safer to manhandle the panel if the router is horizontal

Scrit

 

[Loz_S]

Wow, Scrit, I'm surprised to see you recommending this guys router table. Have you watched his demo video? It scares the hell out of me, with the bit so exposed and his hands passing right over the top... :shock: not a guard or featherboard in sight...

MLCS Table

 

[Scrit]

The principle is OK, it's just the guarding that's pants. Thanks for pointing out that the guy has naff all idea about personal safety, though :shock:

Scrit

 

[JFC]

I can't remember where I got it from right now but I have a VERTICAL raised panel cutter for my router. Instead of being 3" across it is less than 1",

I bought that one after my helicopter show :lol: i got it from D and M made by trend . I have cut loads of raised panels with the 3" cutter by doing 3-4 passes at slow speed . It was my own fault that the cutter came out as i didn't check the speed . I would have no worries about using one as long as the speed can be adjusted .

 

[Joe90]

Axminster sell vertical panel raising cutters, I have used one quite sucessfully although I was using it in a large stationary overhead router with power feed... so it was easy to get consistent results but you'd need many passes per edge, maybe 6 or more. (Probably 8 ) (edited because my 8 ) turned into 8) ... he he

The techniques for panel raising on a panel are probably very dangerous and can only give a limited number of profiles, one way would be to pass the panels vertically over a tilted blade, this must be VERY dangerous! :shock:

One which I didn't come up with myself but which looks interesting is to pass the panels over the rear of the blade at an angle... i.e the panels are flat on the table top and they are passed over the rear of the saw blade, there would be a wooden fence which sits on top of the blade leaving only maybe 30mm of the blade exposed. This would produce a rounded panel raise, how rounded would depend on the diameter of the saw blade, and maybe its height. I have no experience of this and it is also probably VERY dangerous too! So it can't be recommended.

Cheers
Joe

 

[Scrit]

One which I didn't come up with myself but which looks interesting is to pass the panels over the rear of the blade at an angle... i.e the panels are flat on the table top and they are passed over the rear of the saw blade, there would be a wooden fence which sits on top of the blade leaving only maybe 30mm of the blade exposed. This would produce a rounded panel raise, how rounded would depend on the diameter of the saw blade, and maybe its height. I have no experience of this and it is also probably VERY dangerous too! So it can't be recommended.

You can say that again!

Scrit

 

[Anonymous]

Raised and fielded panels with TS no prob (with care etc) - but not the way you describe!
There was a thread just recently I'll try and find the URL.
It would be for neat flat fields - very traditional and better looking than all those boring moulded patterns. And no special tooling required :lol:


cheers
Jacob

 

[Alex]

Right here we go. I took a book along with me to make a turn passed the customer on the way home and seems we've decided on design. Here's a pic.

Tim I agree, one can get caught up in the sell and not been on the same page as the customer will defiantly cause problems, been there before. I've been restoring/building/altering houses for 12 years now, though recent years I've scaled back the business so drastically that I now work alone or at times with one labour. I now have no real overheads and really get to enjoy the craftmanship that goes into the job. So i should have a bit of savy. But saying that i did get a bit carried away and order lumber which i've now put delivery off. Though the customer seems to like the idea of uniform grain wood but the colour of steamed beech seems to be heading towards light pink. So may be a sample with different finish will be good way to go. I'm generally picky who i work for, I only work for people that previous customer vouch for. I've found home owner interior designs to be a pain in the a**. :wink: Thanks for rain check though.

Paul Chapman, Your bench looks fab. I mainly work on sites so i didn't really have use for heavy bench but now i've started the slippery slope of
Carpentry i will soon be building one. :lol:

The horizontal router looks really cool, Bill Hylton has one in his book 'router Magic' i've been thinking about building. Another thing to get around to :roll:

I tried out the option of cutting a taper field on the table saw. I built a sled which fits over my fence. I've added extra vertical support so to keep steady and square. I clamp the panel to the sled. It works great across grain but i've made sled to small to support cutting the length of the biggest panel 1050mmx480mm.
I try again tomorrow and post some pics.

Cheers , Alex