Should I hide heating pipes within solid oak skirting boards

[Sawdust=manglitter]

I'm slowly but surely doing up my house (when the misses can drag me out of the workshop that is), and I'll be making my own solid oak skirting boards for the living room.

I've removed the old 4" skirting and I've laid the new solid oak floor, but my quandary is that I currently have heating pipes which used to be tacked to the top of the old skirting, so these pipes are now approx 80-90mm above the top of the new flooring. So I've been um-ing and ar-ing whether I should compromise on the look and install short 80mm-ish oak skirting boards with the pipes on top... or whether it's sensible to rout a rebate to the back of the skirting to house the heating pipes and make them a nice height? (dont want the aggro or cost of channeling into the walls or having to change the plumbing in any way to hide the pipes)

I've already got enough kiln dried 6x1" Oak planks which are long enough, but what i'm wondering is whether routing a rebate to the back to house the pipes will crack and warp the oak over time due to the fluctuating heat from the pipes?? Has anyone got any experience doing this themselves? Would you get some sort of lagging to go around the pipes for some limited protection?

Any advice or experience would be gratefully received

 

[Mike Jordan]

It would be easier to space the skirting board away from the wall and allow the pipes to be a tight fit between the back of the skirting and the wall. The spacer at the top would need to be oak to blend with the skirting. It's also possible to make a top and bottom moulding and use oak faced ply in the middle to conceal the pipes. I would expect that just removing the plaster would make a recess large enough to take quite a lot of the pipe diameter.
Mike.

 

[Bm101]

Just a thought, probably wrong, in that space maybe nothing will make a difference but would some sort of heat retardant tape on the pipes help? Might be a daft idea... Might be worth a google.

 

[rob.]

Why not just move the pipes?

 

[Sawdust=manglitter]

Thanks for the replies!

It would be easier to space the skirting board away from the wall and allow the pipes to be a tight fit between the back of the skirting and the wall. The spacer at the top would need to be oak to blend with the skirting. It's also possible to make a top and bottom moulding and use oak faced ply in the middle to conceal the pipes. I would expect that just removing the plaster would make a recess large enough to take quite a lot of the pipe diameter.
Mike.

I did think about doing that, but it would look a bit odd as the radiator pipes are like that throughout the house so I'd have to do the same throughout the house when I get around to it... Plus the misses said no straight off as it would collect dust like that.

Just a thought, probably wrong, in that space maybe nothing will make a difference but would some sort of heat retardant tape on the pipes help? Might be a daft idea... Might be worth a google.

That's the kinda thing I was thinking, but still wondering how much the oak would warp and crack though?

Why not just move the pipes?

I don't have the budget (or know-how) to go messing with the plumbing, plus like I said above I'd have to do it throughout the house.

 

[ColeyS1]

Paint the pipe in a contrasting colour to the wall and make a feature of them. I think that looks better than trying to disguise them by painting them the same colour as walls.
I'm not sure oak would like having intense heat one side. Thicker wood would definitely help but how thick do you go before it starts looking like a step all around the room !
I wonder if there's a veneered mdf alternative perhaps ?

Coley

 

[deema]

Oaks a menace to anything metal, any steel will be eaten away if it's touching and also discolour the oak. Brass is OK not sure about copper. You will need to paint / varnish or somehow ensure that the oak does not come into contact with anything. Don't use steel nails to attach the skirting.

 

[YorkshireMartin]

I know you said you're not into plumbing but can I offer some info which may change your mind, well at least it did mine. I used to hate plumbing.

There is a brand of plumbing fittings called Sharkbite. This company make all manner of fittings and couplers for standard pipe sizes. Instead of welding the couplers as is usually the case with copper, they simply push fit. More over, they can be removed again with a special tool.

They are the simplest thing in the world to use, it's as easy as lego. They are expensive compared to regular copper fittings, but not expensive in the great scheme of things. I've used them on all my recent plumbing jobs including new vanity units and radiators. It was super simple.

I am a complete amateur yet armed with these fittings, a cleaner/deburrer, some lengths of copper pipe and a pipe cutter, i was able to avoid any leaks whatsoever.

I've since gone on to insert isolation valves throughout the house using the same method.

I would not hesitate to recommend them if you fancy having a go at moving the path of the pipes.

 

[Paul200]

Not a fan of 'Yorkshire' fittings then, Martin? :wink:

 

[ComfortablyNumb]

Do this all the time using MR Mdf, solid Beech, sapele, oak and American black walnut. As has been said make the skirting into a 2 sided box to hide the pipes. Heat given of won't matter as long as timber is dried out properly, about 9%. Have never been snagged on moving joints etc

Word of advise regarding push fittings for plumbing DON'T BOTHER.!! Have seen damage running into insurance claims of over a million pounds if they fail and whole levels of apartments need to have new floors and 2nd fix joinery redone. West Ham bus garages whole IT network had to be relaid at a cost of 1.1 million due to a push fit joint failing on a Friday afternoon and not being discovered till Monday morning

 

[Sawdust=manglitter]

Do this all the time using MR Mdf, solid Beech, sapele, oak and American black walnut. As has been said make the skirting into a 2 sided box to hide the pipes. Heat given of won't matter as long as timber is dried out properly, about 9%. Have never been snagged on moving joints etc

Word of advise regarding push fittings for plumbing DON'T BOTHER.!! Have seen damage running into insurance claims of over a million pounds if they fail and whole levels of apartments need to have new floors and 2nd fix joinery redone. West Ham bus garages whole IT network had to be relaid at a cost of 1.1 million due to a push fit joint failing on a Friday afternoon and not being discovered till Monday morning

Thanks ComfortablyNumb! The oak that I have is kiln dried. What do you mean exactly by a two sided box? Do you think I'd have issues if I router a decent sized rebate as a space for the pipes?

 

[sunnybob]

I'm also old school when it comes to plumbing pipework.
A PROPERLY made plastic joint is ok, but because theres no certificate need for the builders labourer to install them, an awful lot are very poorly made. And do you realise they are only designed with a 20 year life span? Just long enough for the plumber to have moved away or retired abroad when the 0 ring perishes and split open.

 

[ComfortablyNumb]

Thanks ComfortablyNumb! The oak that I have is kiln dried. What do you mean exactly by a two sided box? Do you think I'd have issues if I router a decent sized rebate as a space for the pipes?

By 2 sided box I meant adding a piece of oak 18mm thick to top of skirting by however wide you want to set your skirting off the wall to conceal the pipes. Then just run some batten around the wall of similar width and then fix the skirting to this.
Doing a rebate is OK as long as you don't leave to thin a piece of timber on the face as that will curl away over time

 

[Wuffles]

I'm also old school when it comes to plumbing pipework.
A PROPERLY made plastic joint is ok, but because theres no certificate need for the builders labourer to install them, an awful lot are very poorly made. And do you realise they are only designed with a 20 year life span? Just long enough for the plumber to have moved away or retired abroad when the 0 ring perishes and split open.

Proof please, about the 20 year life span.

Same question to comfortably numb. Certain plastic fittings are tested and proven to higher pressure ratings than copper (which can't be tested without specific lab conditions, how much flux, how much solder, who did it, etc). There's no certificate required for water plumbing I'm aware of.

So no, I'm not having that. This stuff is public and without proof is just hearsay.

 

[Eric The Viking]

There should be a BBA certificate somewhere for the plastic pipework, which would resolve attribution of the 20-year lifespan. Copper fittings (capilliary) are supposed to conform to a British Standard (IIRC), I presume to prevent them being the wrong material, or too thin walled or dimensionally incorrect.

I have a close friend who recently retired from being a clerk of works/project manager for two housing associations. They have a simple rule: all joints to plastic must be accessible. In other words, any concealed runs must be single, un-jointed pieces of pipe.

I used some plastic years ago on a temporary basis to re-route some 22mm pipework. It stayed in place for several years longer than I'd intended. I was alarmed that the fittings on the links in the airing cupboard degraded very fast, yellowing significantly (I assume it was the start of depolymerisation). This was entirely down to temperature, no UV involved. I believe the plastic composition (grey) is now quite different.

That experience was alarming. I now only have plastic waste pipe in the house, and only copper for anything pressurised.

I know MDPE is normal as incoming pipework, but it's significantly different to what's sold in builders' merchants to go inside houses. And the fittings are a lot stronger, and the pipe is cold water only.

 

[RobCee]

I have only had one plumbing joint in my house fail (to date) and it was a push fit one. I can see how they are easier and may be 'the future' but unless they are good quality and fitted well, they can be a right pain.
Mine was in a ceiling space that had been plaster boarded in and we had to pull a lot of it down to resolve the issue. It looks like the joint was not fitted correctly, rather than premature failure, as it was in an awkward place to get the appropriate pressure on it to seat it fully.
Needless to say, I now have a hatch in that ceiling in case of a necessity to get in there again, but no push fittings.

I do, however, have a couple under the floor in another area of the house. But the underfloor space is 3 feet of air then dirt, so I am not concerned with them as much.

 

[Wuffles]

There should be a BBA certificate somewhere for the plastic pipework, which would resolve attribution of the 20-year lifespan. Copper fittings (capilliary) are supposed to conform to a British Standard (IIRC), I presume to prevent them being the wrong material, or too thin walled or dimensionally incorrect.

I have a close friend who recently retired from being a clerk of works/project manager for two housing associations. They have a simple rule: all joints to plastic must be accessible. In other words, any concealed runs must be single, un-jointed pieces of pipe.

I used some plastic years ago on a temporary basis to re-route some 22mm pipework. It stayed in place for several years longer than I'd intended. I was alarmed that the fittings on the links in the airing cupboard degraded very fast, yellowing significantly (I assume it was the start of depolymerisation). This was entirely down to temperature, no UV involved. I believe the plastic composition (grey) is now quite different.

That experience was alarming. I now only have plastic waste pipe in the house, and only copper for anything pressurised.

I know MDPE is normal as incoming pipework, but it's significantly different to what's sold in builders' merchants to go inside houses. And the fittings are a lot stronger, and the pipe is cold water only.

I don't disagree with a lot of what you've said there, but that's not the certificate I am talking about. I read it that it was implied that labourers doing plumbing (and because it's easy with push fittings that's who would be doing it) can't provide certificates for their work.

I (and colleagues) only stick to branded stuff, have done for years without failure, stronger than an iffy copper joint. Which is my point, you can't tell me that a soldered joint is stronger than a plastic joint, nobody can. Too many factors to consider to make a statement that broad, which is what was being made. I'm not arguing about manufacturing tolerances or requirements, not at all, that wasn't what was being suggested however so although true, it goes nowhere to what I was arguing about. I'm suggesting that people making blanket statements about products is just scaremongering and in some cases fear of the future.

Ever used a Wago for electrics? That's the future for a whole other trade. Look them up

 

[Sawdust=manglitter]

Thanks all for the input. As I said in my original post, I'd rather not go messing with the plumbing if i can help it, whatever the method might be.

By 2 sided box I meant adding a piece of oak 18mm thick to top of skirting by however wide you want to set your skirting off the wall to conceal the pipes. Then just run some batten around the wall of similar width and then fix the skirting to this.
Doing a rebate is OK as long as you don't leave to thin a piece of timber on the face as that will curl away over time

Thanks Numb. The misses told me a flat out no to the boxing out as she doesn't want me to "make her a dust shelf". In terms of doing a rebate, how thick would you say you'd leave to the face of the oak for you to be comfortable that it would hold up to the heat fluctuation from the pipework? If i were to do this I would probably get some sort of thin insulation to make sure the pipe isn't directly touching any oak.

 

[Eric The Viking]

I don't disagree with a lot of what you've said there, but that's not the certificate I am talking about. I read it that it was implied that labourers doing plumbing (and because it's easy with push fittings that's who would be doing it) can't provide certificates for their work.

I have experience of that. The only time I've hired a plumber, to do a bathroom, I asked for copper rather than plastic. He put the "apprentice" on it, and the lad was evidently completely untrained. After wasting almost a whole coil (which I'd provided) of 10mm for the rads. I stepped in. Then a month after they were sacked (wasn't just the pipework), I found elbows feeding the shower (behind the tiles in a solid wall) hadn't been measured nor soldered correctly. Nearly brought down the ceiling underneath, as you might expect, and was a really horrid job to fix.

So obviously any badly-made joint is going to fail, but properly soldered and cleaned joints do not degrade over time, unlike plastic, which might (I dunno, obviously, but I have my suspicions).

I (and colleagues) only stick to branded stuff, have done for years without failure, stronger than an iffy copper joint... [snipped only for brevity]... I'm suggesting that people making blanket statements about products is just scaremongering and in some cases fear of the future.

I'm not scaremongering at all. I was using a very well known branded system, chosen because it was branded, and the plastic used (or the filler or the colourant or something), wasn't chemically stable. I don't know if it affected the integrity of the fitting, as I had no time to test it further, and certainly wasn't going to wait to find out (22mm, immediately next to the stop tap on 25mm MDPE rising main, and more half way up the house too? No way!).

The house is 110 years old, approx. We're in our 20th year of occupancy. For roughly 95 years, parts of it were still using plumbing fitted when it was built. In that context even a 50 year "lifespan" is disappointing, and anyway, any guesses like that are based on environmental testing that may well not simulate accelerated ageing effectively.

I had a bit to do with lifespan/MTBF predictions in the electronics industry: we tested the carp out of our products - humidity, temperature, excessive duty cycling, shock+vibe, RFI susceptibility, etc. You probably knew the team doing it, actually! What got the electro-mechanical hardware in the end would've probably been ageing surface-mount electrolytic capacitors - something which didn't show up in the tests. And what caused significant field failures back in the early 1990s was a simple procedural mistake on the production line - units tested came from the R+D lab, and had been lovingly assembled (in a slightly different way). It is VERY hard to predict longevity in the field.

More pertinently, we also had failures of nylon gear components, caused by a chemical reaction with the grease used (not our mechanism though) - they split. Again, that had all gone through extensive environmental testing, and nothing had shown up.

So I view any lifespan predictions very skeptically.

 

[Wuffles]

I don't disagree with a lot of what you've said there, but that's not the certificate I am talking about. I read it that it was implied that labourers doing plumbing (and because it's easy with push fittings that's who would be doing it) can't provide certificates for their work.

I have experience of that. The only time I've hired a plumber, to do a bathroom, I asked for copper rather than plastic. He put the "apprentice" on it, and the lad was evidently completely untrained. After wasting almost a whole coil (which I'd provided) of 10mm for the rads. I stepped in. Then a month after they were sacked (wasn't just the pipework), I found elbows feeding the shower (behind the tiles in a solid wall) hadn't been measured nor soldered correctly. Nearly brought down the ceiling underneath, as you might expect, and was a really horrid job to fix.

So obviously any badly-made joint is going to fail, but properly soldered and cleaned joints do not degrade over time, unlike plastic, which might (I dunno, obviously, but I have my suspicions).

I (and colleagues) only stick to branded stuff, have done for years without failure, stronger than an iffy copper joint... [snipped only for brevity]... I'm suggesting that people making blanket statements about products is just scaremongering and in some cases fear of the future.

I'm not scaremongering at all.

I didn't say you were, I said others were, namely the others I responded to originally (the ones you appear to be defending for what reason I don't know).

So, just to clarify, I think we're in agreement. A sh*te soldered joint is just that, and can't be compared to anything else, much like a dirty olive in a compression joint could fail at any moment causing catastrophic damage.

I'm fairly sure that the big names in plastic will have done some testing, or they'd be in store for a shockwave of claims against their product given time, but time will tell I suppose.

Did you look up Wago connectors?