Sharpening chisels - the old way?

[bugbear]

If you have made a few too steep strokes then you will find it's slow to get a wire edge when you hone on a fine stone at 30 max so you go on to the coarse stone at 25max for a bit and back to fine and the same again.

Ah - that's what I said about removing more metal.

BugBear

 

[Frank D.]

Again, this is what I do to OBM chisels and rarely do I need to regrind, which is what one *has* to do if they subcribe to multiple bevel theory even using a guided system. There are ways around regrinding the primary bevels, but those are fussy and time consuming even with a guide. So most people I know who subscribe to multiple bevels at some point when the secondary bevel grows to encompass a larger portion of the bevel face, regrind.

I agree with everything you say Mike, and I can see how Jacob's system works (I also sharpen my OBM chisels like this, although I do take them to the grinder once in a while).
The point I was trying to make earlier (and I'm sorry jacob if I came off as chastising you...I do know you can take it though :wink and this is addressed to Jacob too, about not gaining anything by doing a rounded bevel is that even if you're not paying attention to geometry, you still have to grind off the steel which enables you to finish off at your final polishing angle (30°). The rounded bevel has to be less than 30°, so what you are in effect doing each time you sharpen is regrinding your main (albeit rounded) bevel on a coarse stone. Regrinding main bevels on a stone by hand is hard work no matter how you do it. That's all I really wanted to say (that and the fact that I think regrinding on a coarse stone with a guide allows one to exert more pressure and also NOT concentrate on geometry, and thus move more quickly on to the next stone).
Sorry if all this was clear already...in which case I'm just beating a dead horse...

 

[bugbear]

Regrinding main bevels on a stone by hand is hard work no matter how you do it. That's all I really wanted to say (that and the fact that I think regrinding on a coarse stone with a guide allows one to exert more pressure and also NOT concentrate on geometry, and thus move more quickly on to the next stone).

At the risk of surprising people, I grind my primary (normally 25 degree) bevels by hand on very coarse abrasive (60 grit 'J' backed AlZi).

To achieve speed, I use lots of pressure and work by hand - a jig gets in the way of getting a convenient grip to apply the high pressure I want.

For some blades I use a hand vice as a handle, for convenience, accuracy and comfort:

http://www.geocities.com/plybench/tour.html#hand_vise

There is no contradiction here - I have 5 degrees of "upward" tolerance before damaging the precious secondary bevel, so the inevitable errors from a hand process cause no trouble.

The downward tolerance (i.e. too low a bevel) is pretty much unlimited.

Thus the entire (grinding) process is sufficently tolerant of error that hand process are useful.

BugBear

 

[Anonymous]

You must enter a message when posting

 

[bugbear]

Now all you need to do is exactly the same but with a finer stone and at a higher angle. There is upwards tolerance here too but you must try hard not to exceed 30deg, and forget about flat bevels. A visual aid like my cheese device might help (see earlier post). The downwards tolerance is similarly unlimited.

No - there is zero upward tolerance, and therefore the process is not a good one to do by hand.

I was talking about removing waste, not sharpening.

I also use a more extensive sequence with finer grits than you; one "foul" stroke on an earlier grit (e.g. 31 degrees) and all the 30 degree strokes in the world on the finer grits will have no effect on the edge. This is unacceptable.

BugBear

BugBear

 

[Anonymous]

You must enter a message when posting

 

[bugbear]

PS another afterthought, Instead of repeatedly telling yourself that freehand sharpening is impossible

To echo Jim Kingshott(*), it's not that I can't sharpen freehand. I am aware of a wide range of techniques for both freehand and jigged sharpening.

But I get better, more consistent edges, and longer tool life using jigs.

That would appear (echoing Sgian Dubh) to be the most important thing.

Sharp edges.

BugBear

(*) I'm not claiming to be the craftsman he was

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Bugbear, you described it about right. I guess I was just saying to, get tools sharp fast-- which matters if your living comes from working wood rather than sharpening tools.

I'd opine, if your job is tool making or tool maintenance, e.g., saw/plane maker or saw doctor, that getting tools sharp fast probably matters too.

I'd also guess that if a person's interest is cutting edge geometry and theory, then perhaps it's more about the process of sharpening than it is about using the sharpened tool. So it could be that the process of sharpening and the time involved in doing the sharpening job right is the end goal, if you see what I mean.

In other words, the tool doesn't actually have to do anything useful, but it does need to be as sharp as it can possibly be-- just because. Slainte.

 

[bugbear]

I'd also guess that if a person's interest is cutting edge geometry and theory, then perhaps it's more about the process of sharpening than it is about using the sharpened tool. So it could be that the process of sharpening and the time involved in doing the sharpening job right is the end goal, if you see what I mean.

In other words, the tool doesn't actually have to do anything useful, but it does need to be as sharp as it can possibly be-- just because. Slainte.

(chuckle). I guess you've been reading my posts for a while.

My true interest is indeed in tuning seven shades of you-know-what out of tools.

But I do work wood.

Solely for the joy of using perfectly tuned tools.

Others may have different goals. :twisted:

BugBear

 

[Anonymous]

You must enter a message when posting

 

[woodbloke]

Jacob wrote:

Honing jigs look like a good idea but they are the cause of most peoples sharpening problems, not the solution.

Jacob - I understand your adamant dislike of the honing jigs, of whatever type - in a different life...in a galaxy far, far away I was a woodwork teacher, for my sins, probably one of the last of the breed and I used to sharpen about 80 or so bench firmer chisels (4 to a bench space, 20 spaces in the workshop), and possibly grind those that the kids had dinged, (which happened, as you can imagine fairly frequently) in about an hour. This is not counting of course, the bevel edged chisels, smoothing and jack planes, which got done on a different day. There simply wasn't time to mess about with jigs, it all had to be done freehand. Whilst the edges achieved weren't supersonic sharp, they were adequate and would quite cheerfully slice open the odd little hand that got in front of a blade. When I started doing woodie stuff as a hobby I too used to sharpen freehand with varying results, though as soon as I used the Eclipse jig I got very consistent and much sharper edges. I now though had much more time to be a little bit more leisurely about it ...'scuse me, just going to fill up the coffee cup. In my view, it has to be each to his own, what works for one don't for another and I think we all need to find the method that works for the individual - Rob

 

[Colin C]

But there is another issue which worries me; I think that many people, esp beginners, are being seriously mislead about sharpening and being tempted down ever more complicated routes involving ever increasing expenditure. Take a look at the Veritas Mk 2 thread. What a daft Heath-Robinson device that is - and what problems it causes its users (as do all honing jigs). It seems that most sharpening threads are about the same thing - how to make honing jigs work. The endless series of answers offered involve flatter stones, how to flatten stones, plate glass with emery paper, water stones, diamond stones, numbers of bevels and so on. But few point to the obvious answer, which is to throw the stupid thing away.
Honing jigs look like a good idea but they are the cause of most peoples sharpening problems, not the solution.

cheers
Jacob

I think the point that is being missed here is that there is a place for both ways as it has been said before :roll:

I and I am sure people on here see your point but you seem to not see this Jacob, dont get me wrong you do have some very good point.

I used to do my sharpening by hand but now use a diamond stone and a jig.
I did polish my edges but I have found that when I do my edges last longer ( unless I hit a nail or screw :evil: ) and for some of the timbers I use I get a better cut and finish.

For me I will not stop using one and I am get you have found a way that works for you, also a lot of the people on here have no one to teach them so find a way that works for them.

This has gone so far because there has been this idea that there is just one way to do this right :roll: ( not one size or technic (sp) fit all)

 

[Colin C]

Rob
Beat me to it :wink:

 

[Alf]

I don't think anyone's missing the point - unless it's willfully. :roll: Someone should call the RSPCA and give this horse a decent burial...

 

[Colin C]

I don't think anyone's missing the point - unless it's willfully. :roll: Someone should call the RSPCA and give this horse a decent burial...

I could not have out it any better

 

[woodbloke]

If I for one read any more about sharpening on this thread, I think I'm rapidly going to loose the will to live....sooo I intend to keep all sharp objects (freehand sharpened or no) away from me so that I can't accidently impale myself thru' the eyeballs - Rob

 

[bugbear]

Someone should call the RSPCA and give this horse a decent burial...

Gratuitously stolen emoticon!!

BugBear

 

[wachenga]

I for one have found this thread very interesting (ok maybe it is getting a little long in the tooth). It prompted me to go through all the various books I have on woodworking and hand tools, Joyce, Hooper (1908), Hayward, Dunbar, Krenov and others I can't remember off the top of my head. Of course they all advocate methods of grinding by machine and honing by hand, although none describe the grind/hone method that Mr Grimsdale has submitted to the forum. Hooper was quite insistent about keeping the angle and hand steady to avoid rounding the bevel, and thus needing to regrind.

I guess it's all about accuracy and precision, a fundamental aspect of cabinetmaking, well at least that's what I was taught. It made me think about paring a mitre, sure you could do it by hand/eye but you will get a more accurate and repeatable result when you take that extra moment to clamp on a brass/wood mitre guide and use it to help guide your work.

Cheers

Liam

(*Edit to fix spelling)

 

[Shadowfax]

Take a look at the Veritas Mk 2 thread. What a daft Heath-Robinson device that is

I know you are trying to put forward your opinion but that remark really is daft in itself. OK, it's a honing guide but it is certainly neither daft nor Heath Robinson. I don't think Veritas do Heath Robinson!
A great thread, by the way, but loooong!
Cheers.

SF

 

[Anonymous]

You must enter a message when posting