Severance negotiations

[Agent_zed]

I have to disagree with that. It's not legal (therefore falling into the category of gross misconduct) and leaves a digital footprint that certainly any employer I have worked for would be able to see.

Depends. If your work allows you to have your emails on your phone or device, then it would be impossible for them to know. The places I've worked don't want to buy phones for everyone so allow people to put their work emails on their phones. Other than cutting your access to further emails they wouldn't, to my knowledge, be able to remove the account from your phone or computer or know that I still had them.

I didn't tell them I had a copy but I certainly used them to check dates and conversations for my tribunal hearing. Seeing as the leader of the Scottish government can 'lose' a load of whatsapp messages I wouldn't trust that a subject access request was going to provide me with everything I'd need. It would then look very bad on the employers part if you can name dates of emails that they haven't provided.

Amusing in my case my employer included a bunch of emails in the tribunal docs that, I wasn't aware of, they thought showed one thing but instead showed they conspired to give another person being made redundant a job that I was vastly more qualified to do.

As you say though you do have to be aware of the IT systems in place.
Alternatively there is nothing to stop you printing out a bunch of emails specific to your claim before you are sacked though as evidence.

 

[paulrbarnard]

Depends. If your work allows you to have your emails on your phone or device, then it would be impossible for them to know. The places I've worked don't want to buy phones for everyone so allow people to put their work emails on their phones. Other than cutting your access to further emails they wouldn't, to my knowledge, be able to remove the account from your phone or computer or know that I still had them.

I didn't tell them I had a copy but I certainly used them to check dates and conversations for my tribunal hearing. Seeing as the leader of the Scottish government can 'lose' a load of whatsapp messages I wouldn't trust that a subject access request was going to provide me with everything I'd need. It would then look very bad on the employers part if you can name dates of emails that they haven't provided.

Amusing in my case my employer included a bunch of emails in the tribunal docs that, I wasn't aware of, they thought showed one thing but instead showed they conspired to give another person being made redundant a job that I was vastly more qualified to do.

As you say though you do have to be aware of the IT systems in place.
Alternatively there is nothing to stop you printing out a bunch of emails specific to your claim before you are sacked though as evidence.

Not entirely true. Our IT department is able to monitor what I do on my personal phone related to company email. They are also able to remotely wipe that email account. They also manage a security context that lets me connect to the corporate network to access corporate applications like expenses. I also had to agree that they could erase the entire device if I lost it. This is my personal iPhone not one provided by the company.

 

[Paultheroamer]

@Blackswanwood agreed

 

[Agent_zed]

Not entirely true. Our IT department is able to monitor what I do on my personal phone related to company email. They are also able to remotely wipe that email account. They also manage a security context that lets me connect to the corporate network to access corporate applications like expenses. I also had to agree that they could erase the entire device if I lost it. This is my personal iPhone not one provided by the company.

So you know that is in place and could plan accordingly, e.g screen grab things out that relate to a grievance. If you are allowed by the company to just setup your work emails on your phone without IT support (add account -> sign in etc) without any policy giving them access to your device, then there won't be anything they can do other than ask you to remove it. The place I worked could barely keep the computers running so the possibility that they knew I had a copy of my emails was zero.

You can certainly keep relevant emails without issue. Even ACAS says 'The employee can bring any evidence about the grievance, for example relevant emails, to show and discuss at the meeting.'
https://www.acas.org.uk/grievance-procedure-step-by-step/step-4-the-grievance-meeting
If it is something dangerous that is being covered up then you will be protected by whistle blowing policies in most cases, with a few exceptions such as military inteligence.

Probably been mentioned already but reading through the ACAS website guide is probably a useful read.

 

[Spectric]

Not entirely true. Our IT department is able to monitor what I do on my personal phone related to company email.

There is also software that can monitor any company laptop right down to keystrokes and often location data to produce reports for who ever needs them to in effect check on your productivity / value to the company.

Once you go down this severance route then you know it is a one way journey but attending an interview in your own time is not misconduct and if you did do it in company time then being given a warning should have been enough but if the boss already had you in his sights for something else or you have had previous issues then you have just given him the excuse he needed to get rid so lets hope the interview was a success.

 

[Blackswanwood]

So you know that is in place and could plan accordingly, e.g screen grab things out that relate to a grievance. If you are allowed by the company to just setup your work emails on your phone without IT support (add account -> sign in etc) without any policy giving them access to your device, then there won't be anything they can do other than ask you to remove it. The place I worked could barely keep the computers running so the possibility that they knew I had a copy of my emails was zero.

You can certainly keep relevant emails without issue. Even ACAS says 'The employee can bring any evidence about the grievance, for example relevant emails, to show and discuss at the meeting.'
https://www.acas.org.uk/grievance-procedure-step-by-step/step-4-the-grievance-meeting
If it is something dangerous that is being covered up then you will be protected by whistle blowing policies in most cases, with a few exceptions such as military inteligence.

Probably been mentioned already but reading through the ACAS website guide is probably a useful read.

Sorry if you feel I am being pedantic but none of us know where the OP works or where anyone else reading this works so a comparison to where you worked doesn't really help. The employer may not know their @RSE from their elbow when it comes to IT but if they engage a good solicitor they may recommend bringing in someone who does to find out what's been happening. It's far better to stay on the right side of the law.

Your earlier point about the right to raise a SAR is the way to approach it. Failing to comply with a SAR request is a serious matter and the ICO will get involved. A much more safe way to handle it would be to note down the date and time of any pertinent e-mails and use this to challenge if they are not included in a SAR.

Hopefully this is all a moot point and the OP can find a resolution without the need for all the grief we are starting to discuss.

 

[stuckinthemud]

Thank you all for your comments, I felt much better prepared for the meeting

 

[Sgian Dubh]

What I find fascinating is that some of you seem to use your personal mobile phones in your employer's business. So you've got a mobile that mixes personal use along with your employer's needs, and it seems that in some cases your employer has access to your phone, can monitor your use, and delete stuff as they see fit. I think I've got that right.

I've had only one potential employer indicate that I'd need to use my mobile phone to conduct their business. I said something along the lines of, 'No chance, but if you need me to have smart phone capability to work for you you provide it.' I may not have been as polite as that. I didn't get the job, happily, ha, ha. Slainte.

 

[Agent_zed]

Sorry if you feel I am being pedantic but none of us know where the OP works or where anyone else reading this works so a comparison to where you worked doesn't really help. The employer may not know their @RSE from their elbow when it comes to IT but if they engage a good solicitor they may recommend bringing in someone who does to find out what's been happening. It's far better to stay on the right side of the law.

Your earlier point about the right to raise a SAR is the way to approach it. Failing to comply with a SAR request is a serious matter and the ICO will get involved. A much more safe way to handle it would be to note down the date and time of any pertinent e-mails and use this to challenge if they are not included in a SAR.

Hopefully this is all a moot point and the OP can find a resolution without the need for all the grief we are starting to discuss.

As long as the company policy states you can have emails on your personal devices then there is no issue. As with insurance, check your policies carefully.

SARs are all good, assuming the company is honest and bothers to do a good job. 'Oh dear our server had a virus and lost 6 months of emails'.

This seems to have some sensible advice/examples somewhere in between what we are discussing Gathering written evidence | Monaco Solicitors ! Employment Law

 

[AJB Temple]

Just to correct one slight thing in case it was not mentioned: what used to be called "compromise agreements" are now called settlement agreements. There are examples on line and they both have much the same purpose but with perhaps a more realistic title.

 

[Fitzroy]

What I find fascinating is that some of you seem to use your personal mobile phones in your employer's business. So you've got a mobile that mixes personal use along with your employer's needs, and it seems that in some cases your employer has access to your phone, can monitor your use, and delete stuff as they see fit. I think I've got that right.

I've had only one potential employer indicate that I'd need to use my mobile phone to conduct their business. I said something along the lines of, 'No chance, but if you need me to have smart phone capability to work for you you provide it.' I may not have been as polite as that. I didn't get the job, happily, ha, ha. Slainte.

My employer has the same requirement that to access certain company info, email and some file repositories, then the device needs to sign up to company security profile that would enable them to wipe my device. However, there is no requirement to have my works email on my phone and so i don't. The only work thing I do find necessary to have access to is my calendar else i'd be forever clashing work and personal appointments, but this is possible without the security profile.

Most of my new graduates have asked about a company phone, I explained they don't need it as their role is not operationally critical, they look a bit startled and ask how they will see their email out of hours, I ask why on earth they would want to do that! I persuade most of them of the merits of separating work and home, but some end up signing their personal device to the work system, sigh.

 

[Inspector]

Just curious but would photographing emails off the work computer screen to have a reminder/record be a problem? Download them to another computer when you get home and delete them and from the trash file of the phone after. Nobody has to know you have them.

Pete

 

[Blackswanwood]

What I find fascinating is that some of you seem to use your personal mobile phones in your employer's business. So you've got a mobile that mixes personal use along with your employer's needs, and it seems that in some cases your employer has access to your phone, can monitor your use, and delete stuff as they see fit. I think I've got that right.

I've had only one potential employer indicate that I'd need to use my mobile phone to conduct their business. I said something along the lines of, 'No chance, but if you need me to have smart phone capability to work for you you provide it.' I may not have been as polite as that. I didn't get the job, happily, ha, ha. Slainte.

A lot of companies do this now either for everyone or as a choice for employees. Most mobile phones will accommodate a virtual sim which means you can have two phone lines and data packages on one hand set. You have one mailbox for personal use and one for business. It means you only need carry one phone. It’s not a case of the employee subsiding the employer for phone calls and data!

 

[stuckinthemud]

So, I cannot discuss what form the meeting took, or even that a meeting may or may not have happened, but, hypothetically, if I were to enter a period of negotiation, where would I stand if I were to use my company laptop to job search in my own time?

 

[akirk]

So, I cannot discuss what form the meeting took, or even that a meeting may or may not have happened, but, hypothetically, if I were to enter a period of negotiation, where would I stand if I were to use my company laptop to job search in my own time?

Do you have an IT policy?
If yes - does it prohibit personal use of corporate kit?
If no or no -then you should be fine - however if you have an alternative way of making those searches using your own kit it is likely to be better

 

[Etaf]

i would use your own kit, also make sure you are using a personal email for things - when /if you leave you weill nolonger access the email and I know quite a few people who have setup thier work computer as the main email for sites - and then had trouble changing it , as the system emails the original email , which is nolonger available
its got better recently - but some sites may still be a problem - so if you have used a company email address I suggest you change that asap , a lot of authentication uses email as well, and if that does not work , then you can have a lot of issues , espeically some of these onlone only systems with NO customer service , that do everything online....

same applies to phones if company - 2 factor auth, through a company number that nolonger s available to you , and depending on size of company be be immediately disabled
I know various companies i worked for / consulted - the admin / IT turned things OFF pretty quickly on leaving .... and archived the data

Or even people tryign to get hold of you , if say you go on garden leave - no kit usually

 

[Blackswanwood]

So, I cannot discuss what form the meeting took, or even that a meeting may or may not have happened, but, hypothetically, if I were to enter a period of negotiation, where would I stand if I were to use my company laptop to job search in my own time?

There is probably not a black and white answer to this.

If I found myself in such a position I would try and find an alternative way of doing it. I certainly wouldn’t use a company e-mail account.

 

[Adam W.]

So, I cannot discuss what form the meeting took, or even that a meeting may or may not have happened, but, hypothetically, if I were to enter a period of negotiation, where would I stand if I were to use my company laptop to job search in my own time?

I don't know much about this kind of stuff, but I would not use their equipment for your personal reasons.

 

[stuckinthemud]

Definitely won’t use a company email

 

[paulrbarnard]

What I find fascinating is that some of you seem to use your personal mobile phones in your employer's business. So you've got a mobile that mixes personal use along with your employer's needs, and it seems that in some cases your employer has access to your phone, can monitor your use, and delete stuff as they see fit. I think I've got that right.

I've had only one potential employer indicate that I'd need to use my mobile phone to conduct their business. I said something along the lines of, 'No chance, but if you need me to have smart phone capability to work for you you provide it.' I may not have been as polite as that. I didn't get the job, happily, ha, ha. Slainte.

That is the case for me. I can have a phone provided by my employer but am happier just having the one phone. I wouldn’t use work equipment for personal use so this works best for me. Nothing nefariousness going on on my iPhone, I use the burner for that