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Cheshirechappie

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It's becoming more difficult to buy slotted head woodscrews. Screwsline have a good range, and old stock can often be acquired from Ebay, but the local shops and DIY sheds, and many of the online suppliers, stock either a reduced range or none at all. Another slight beef is that recent examples seem to be made of some sort of metallised cheese; I don't remember the steel slotted head screws of my youth becoming chewed or twisting apart quite so readily.

I can quite understand that someone banging in woodscrews by the hundred on new work would be very glad of the modern power-driver-friendly heads, but for fine work, and for repairs and renovations where slotted screws were originally used, they aren't really the thing. I have to admit to a rather irrational antipathy towards cross-point screws; to me, seeing a set of slotted screws nipped up so that their slots align the same way speaks of a level of care and craftsmanship.

Anybody else regret the decline of the slotted head screw?
 
Cheshirechappie":35ozwzeg said:
.......
Anybody else regret the decline of the slotted head screw?
Yes, but for years I've been saving used slotted screws as I salvage the wood or just when stripping stuff down. By now I've many large jaws full of them and can usually rake up what's needed for a job or restoration. Of course for restoration old used ones are better anyway.
 
I have the same issues. I had a bunch of brass screws recently and they kept on breaking. Not sure if that's normal but it was a right pain.
 
it is expected with brass the advice here is to screw in a steel one, remove it and screw in the brass one
 
marcros":3c4esibw said:
it is expected with brass the advice here is to screw in a steel one, remove it and screw in the brass one

Agreed. Plus with brass screws I tend to use a size up from the normal, so for attaching a top with buttons I'll use a size 10 for small tables and a size 12 for dining tables. But the ideal length is 7/8" for small tables and 1 1/4" for dining tables, and I can only now source source the number 10 7/8" in the USA, which costs a bomb in freight and duty unless I can get a visiting friend or relation to oblige.

So fussiness doesn't come cheap!
 
I have been given loads of slotted brass and steel screws CSK and round head they should out last me, I do look for brass screws at car boots and they are some about.

24th January by Pete Maddex, on Flickr

Pete
 
Cheshirechappie":2xr2h6a3 said:
It's becoming more difficult to buy slotted head woodscrews. Screwsline have a good range, and old stock can often be acquired from Ebay, but the local shops and DIY sheds, and many of the online suppliers, stock either a reduced range or none at all. Another slight beef is that recent examples seem to be made of some sort of metallised cheese; I don't remember the steel slotted head screws of my youth becoming chewed or twisting apart quite so readily.

I can quite understand that someone banging in woodscrews by the hundred on new work would be very glad of the modern power-driver-friendly heads, but for fine work, and for repairs and renovations where slotted screws were originally used, they aren't really the thing. I have to admit to a rather irrational antipathy towards cross-point screws; to me, seeing a set of slotted screws nipped up so that their slots align the same way speaks of a level of care and craftsmanship.

Anybody else regret the decline of the slotted head screw?

100% not a fan of it! I've got a source for screws (someone who has hundreds and hundreds of pounds of them, vintage screws that were cut cleanly), but I have trouble getting them to "go to their well" to get me some, if you know what I mean.

I've been buying them on ebay and amazon, and as mentioned above, I save them when I take something apart that is junk (for example, transitional planes - which I can never seem to get rid of for even what the iron and cap iron would bring alone). Those transitionals have two nice large standard screws in them, enough beech in the sole to make a small gaggle of chisel handles, and often a hardly used iron and cap iron.
 
Cheshirechappie":1v0xx9c1 said:
Anybody else regret the decline of the slotted head screw?

Not in the slightest. Once you've tried square drive screws anything else is cr@p. :lol:
 
I happen to have a collection of screws to dispose of. Brands are largely Timber Mate, Nettlefolds and unknown (logo is TQ intertwined), both in steel and (a small amount) in Brass. Mostly self-coloured, the odd box of plated and, except for one box of dome heads, all slotted and countersunk. Sizes from 2 to 12. Lengths from a gnats todger to 2 1/2".

Screws steel_sc.jpg

Screws brass_sc.jpg


Worth offering in the For Sale section?
 

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Roger - I've got a hoard of 'salvaged' screws too - but it's not big enough to yield the paricular one I want most times! I did, however, make a practice of buying a boxful whenever I wanted a size I didn't have, so stocks of some lesser-used sizes are adequate for now. Problems arise when stocks run low and I replenish them with modern 'cheese' ones, though.

Morfa and Marcros - It was a practice that ceased before my screw-buying days, but it used to be the custom that anyone buying a couple of dozen brass screws from the old-fashioned ironmongers would get one or two steel ones of the same size thrown in for free. Another trick I've heard is to run two or three file-cuts along the length of the first four or five threads, a bit like a metal-cutting tap. I've not tried this one myself, but I gather some old-timers used to keep a few of the common sizes thus filed in their kit. Getting the pilot hole size right helps a lot too - and it isn't necessarily the same for all woods; for anything of consequence, it's worth a couple of practice runs on a bit of scrap to get things right.

Something that I have tried - and it does make a significant difference - is a small smear of petroleum jelly on the thread of the screw before driving it. It can also help with the problem of rusting-in, too; I had to remove some steel screws I'd put into the garden gate hinges years ago, and they came out with no bother at all, and still quite bright. Another old trick used donkey's years ago was to keep a bar of soap in your pocket, and apply a smear before driving the screw.

Corneel - Making your own screws - that's cool! Back to the 18th century - and for a decent reproduction of anything from that period, the only 'right' way. Screws were expensive then; I gather they were among the first things to be mass-produced by machine, from the late 18th century onwards. The early ones didn't have points, which made pilot holes essential. The addition of the point to woodscrews was a mid 19th century American improvement.

Custard - To solve the 7/8" long screw problem, would it be possible to nip the point off 1" screws, thus recreating the 18th and early 19th century screws with blunt tips? Pilot holes essential, of course, but they'd be needed in most hardwoods anyway. A bit more hassle having to 'prepare' screws, but it might save some cost.

Pete - that's the sort of stash many people would - if not kill - give much to have available. There's a few bob's worth there - nice acquisition!

D_W - When some people hoard, they have great difficulty in letting any of it go, just in case. No matter that they'd have to live to be 1000 years old to use it all - they just can't let go! I'm a tad surprised that transitionals are not more popular, given the joint advantages of a wooden sole, adjustability and relative lightness. Maybe they're due a revival - Mignal made himself a Marples type one a few months ago after a Paul Sellers video, and raved about it.

Woodpig - Rubbish. They're all wrong for 'proper' work. OK for IKEA, though. :lol:

Mike - hang on to them! You never know...

David - Old Joseph was more a metals man. Woodscrews were about the only thing he didn't get involved with!
 
Last night I had two of these cheesy ones. They had very shallow screwdriver grooves. With a hacksaw I deepened them a little, waxed the threads and it was much easier to drive them home.
 
Corneel":1ym2ae52 said:
Last night I had two of these cheesy ones. They had very shallow screwdriver grooves. With a hacksaw I deepened them a little, waxed the threads and it was much easier to drive them home.

Kees, with those hand cut screws, George Wilson would say you're ready to do some 18th century gunsmithing.

I don't know what they'd think of a pair of dueling pistols in holland, though.
 
Indeed, firearms are a no go area overhere.

I watched some youtube video of some Belgium firearm smiths who made damascus riffles almost a hundred years ago. The level of craftsmanship of those guys completely baffles me. With the advance of technology a lot of handskills have gone through the drain.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fa9dlvRDuQU
 
Cheshirechappie":3kib6wgz said:
to me, seeing a set of slotted screws nipped up so that their slots align the same way speaks of a level of care and craftsmanship.

I shall confess up front, I am an Engineer.

Seeing screws all neatly clocked in the same orientation speaks to me of style over function. A screw is in the right orientation when it is at the correct torque / tightness. If you insist on lining them all up, especially with brass screws, snapped screws are a risk you run. IMHO as an engineer.

The screws I find hard to source are roundhead screws - especially slotted in brass. I can't understand why they are so uncommon; if you don't have a countersunk hole (e.g, fixing a sink to the wall), a roundhead looks so much nicer than a not properly seated countersunk screw. Also better than C/S in conjunction with slotted holes to allow for seasonal movement. I bought a few sizes from Screwsline for stock when I needed a few to hold the top on an oak table.

I have been pleasantly surprised by the brass countersunk screws and hinges I got from Screwfix. The small brass Eclipse hinges are not so bad. The screws do need care to avoid snapping, but can look fine. The traditional slotted stainless ones are useful too. But this was a few years ago I'm thinking, so maybe they have changed to a lower quality alternative by now.
 
I'm an engineer too, Tony, and I DO like to see screw-slots lined up nicely, in cabinetwork and joinery, anyway; mechanical work is another matter.

I've had brass screws from Screwfix too, with similarly satisfactory results, but that was a couple of years ago (though it may have been more - time flies!). Last time i checked, the range was either very much reduced or had disappeared; I think I was looking for steel countersunk slotted and they didn't have any.

That's one of the problems with technology marching on; some of the bulk sellers may still be available, but the specialist lines like stainless, corrosion-resistant bronze and so on, or the slow-selling odd sizes in the more usual materials disappear from the catalogues as manufacture becomes less viable.
 
David C":wpow77a0 said:
I thought he designed the lathe which turned a good quality woodscrew?

David

It's certainly true that Whitworth did a lot to improve machine tools, and was among the first to offer them for sale. However, most of the fundamental developments were by others, notably his mentor Henry Maudslay, and his fellow Maudslay apprentices Naysmith, Roberts and Clement. Also true that before Whitworth started selling machine tools, you had to build your own or commission one from a small band of competent mechanics. I don't know whether Whitworth offered woodscrew-making machinery, he certainly did make a very considerable range of products. However, he wasn't the man who mechanised woodscrew-making.

I've been having a bit of a rummage in the CC Towers library, and couple of references have surfaced. Firstly, LTC Rolt's 'Tools for the Job', in which he tells us that the laborious process of filing the thread onto a blank became an early candidate for mechanisation. In 1760, the brothers Job and William Wyatt of Tatenhill and Burton on Trent in Staffordshire developed two types of special-purpose lathes, one in which the smithed blank of wrought iron was held for the head to be filed, and then the slot cut by a revolving cutter. The blank then passedto a second lathe, on which the screw was cut by two opposing cutters fixed in a frame guided by a 'master screw'.

It seems that in 1776 the Wyatt brothers acquired a water-driven corn mill at Tatenhall to convert into a screw factory. For reasons unknown, this venture was a financial failure, and was sold as a going concern to Shorthouse, Wood and Co who improved the process and expended production to the extent that a second factory was opened in Hartshorn nearby. In 1792, they were producing 1,200 gross a week "by means of 36 engines, or lathes......They are made of various sizes from half-an-ounce to 30lb per gross".

Rolt goes on to say that this must be one of the earliest examples of mass production by means of special purpose machines. The methods patented by the brothers Wyatt were refined but not basically altered until 1854, when John Sutton Nettlefold, working under licence, re-equipped his Birmingham screw factory with American machinery for the production of the modern pointed taper woodscrew. Rolt doesn't state this, but it seems that credit for the pointed woodsrew lies in America, though I don't unfortunately know who, where or when.

The second reference to come to hand was 'One Good Turn; A Natural History of the Screwdriver and the Screw' by Witold Rybczynski. I think it's out of print, but Abebooks or similar should be able to dig up a copy. A small, and rather rambling book, but there's good research buried in it. It seems the origins of the woodscrew are obscure, but could go back to the 14th century. They became more common in the early 17th century as locks and hinges were fitted to furniture, and the butt hinge started to be used for entrance doors. The strap hinge could be attached by clenched nails; the butt hinge could not, as the nail could not be clenched in the doorframe. There was a thriving trade in screw-making in the West Midlands, the wrought iron blanks being made by smiths, and then passed to 'girders' (often home-based) who filed them up and cut the thread either by filing, or by cutting them in a small, primitive lathe, guiding the cutting tool by hand and eye only. The results were inconsistent, and often had shallow threads, and the time taken to make them rendered them expensive.

It seems that there were many attempts to improve the drivability of screws during the 19th century, but none were commercially successsful. It wasn't until the advent of automobile manufacture, and the need to power-drive lots of screws reliably, that the cross-point and Robertson types (square drive, socket in the screwhead) took hold - the 1930s.
 
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