SCM vs Felder

[Tommy7810]

Hi folks,

Another age old comparison thread. I'm in the market for some new kit. A panel saw and a planer thicknesser.
I've been looking at the Felder K700 and AD741 (maybe AD941). I haven't had my hands on one yet, but spoke to an agent.

I've also been looking at SCM but find it harder to understand or identify a comparable machine. I'll ring a dealer today.

I was wondering if anyone has experience of the build quality, ease of use/service, backup service, etc. of these machines?

Would greatly appreciate any input!

Thanks in Advance.

 

[Against_The_Grain]

If you want to enjoy your work and be efficient while doing it, get a Panhans or Martin.

If you don’t give a sh-t, SCM are agriculturally made but very durable if you replace all the plastic lever handles. Felder might as well stop making machines, they were OK back in the 90s but any machines before and after are just poorly made with bad design choices that makes operating them a chronic pain day after day.

 

[Ollie78]

I do not entirely disagree with @Against_The_Grain 's comment and would certainly love to have a workshop filled with Martin and Panhans kit, there are levels of expense and intended use to be considered.

Is it a big operation with many staff running a machine all day or just one guy in a garage using it on Sundays ?
I personally have a Felder Hammer planer thicknesser with a spiral head and I find it pretty good, for the price it was that, an SCM or a second hand Sedgewick, there is no way I could have got even an old second hand Martin for the money.
I am a one man shop and it's fine for my needs. I am sure the AD741 is pretty nice. If you do get a silent power head you can get the inserts very much cheaper from AMS.


I would say that it is best to see a machine in person and operate it if you can.

Ollie

 

[Tommy7810]

Hi guys,

Thanks very much for the input. Wow. I really wasn't expecting that response! Certainly food for thought.

In relation to expense and intended use. One man operation weekends and evenings - doing furniture. Aiming to create some revenue from it as a side gig, so efficiency and enjoyment are important. But funding is not infinite to justify the Martin, etc.

I really thought that SCM and Felder had a great reputation.
I've been reading even within brand, there's differences.
What would be a good alternative between those brands and then the Martin and Panhan?

Really appreciate the advice.

 

[Against_The_Grain]

I really thought that SCM and Felder had a great reputation.

Don't get me wrong, they're definitely a decent step up from the likes of iTECH or Charnwood and most would get on with them fine but when you use them all day, every day, you need a machine that's very dependable and ultimately comfortable to use.

There are massive differences between the bottom end of SCM machines (Minimax) and the top end (L'Invincible) by which point you're getting into Martin and Panhans money and the quality just isn't quite there. SCM's castings are brilliant but the machines are often clunky to use and poorly thought out, too many siestas in the engineering department.

Felder are OK, but wear out very quickly in a moderate-use environment and you find yourself constantly repairing them and replacing parts as they use substandard parts and charge a premium for them, plus the customer service with Felder is generally horrific after they've taken your money. You will find people raving about how good they are, but these are also the people without a spec of sawdust in their workshop so take all "experiences" with a grain of salt, even mine, and formulate your own opinions. As we all know, the only noteworthy thing to come out of Austria was a short ill-tempered man with a funny mustache whose name escapes me.

Altendorf is probably the third best when it comes to panel saws, and they should be good at it as it's pretty much all they make. When it comes to planers I would totally knock the combined planer thicknesser on the head and get separate machines, no matter how little space there is. A combined planer thicknesser is a death sentence for your spine as the thicknesser is at the incorrect height for comfortable work at long periods, a dedicated thicknesser is much higher off the ground, and dedicated surface planers are generally much more robust, accurate, and simpler machines than their combined counterparts. I wouldn't bother with buying new planers, the older ones from the likes of Wadkin, Robinson, Cooksley, Dominion, etc have much more mass and are excellently built at a fraction of the cost secondhand, the only negative being blade changing but anyone worth their salt will learn how to do that without much fuss.

Most woodworkers overlook efficiency and comfort, that's why they never make any money and are completely knackered by 50.

 

[Yojevol]

I spent 20 years of my so-called retirement making furniture on a semi-professional basis. I referred to it as self-financing hobby. My shop was based on a Felder combo which incorporated the 741 PT. After many years I got fed up with the P - T changeover process and bought an independent RP thicknesser.
I had 2 or 3 occasions when I needed advice from Felder and always found them very helpful. The quality of the engineering was very good apart from a few plastic components but these either cosmetic and therefore expendable or repairable - spares are expensive.
Brian

 

[johnnyb]

doing it for a hobby then of course get a martin.....what else?
only if your a professional will you struggle by with sub standard rubbish..

 

[deema]

When I retired I had considered and in fact started to go down the root of building kitchens etc. For the volumes I was interested in making an expensive slider just didn’t make financial sense. It was actually far more cost effective to buy stuff cut to size, Peter Millard I believe also had this approach. The thing that usually wins you the job is the design and finish not the cost which is not the main driver ……well if your having bespoke it’s not going to be cheap where ever you go! ……if cost is the main factor they will be buying something off the shelf.

For small cut lists a track saw is a wonderful tool and really versatile. Take a look at @petermillard 10 minute workshop to see both how he organised his tiny workspace and the tools he used.

If you’re looking at making more brown furniture which seems to be making early signs of a return then you won’t necessarily want a slider, probably a rip saw.

Most shops will find a CNC router a god send for speeding up the work as well as offering versatility on what can be made, and at keeping up margins. If it were me, Id probably plumb for a decent full sheet CNC router rather than a slider…..about the same floor space required.

If you’re after a slider, I’m not fan of Felder, complete pain to maintain, most machines need turning upside down to access anything…German mentality of who does what…..Modern entry level SCM‘s are nice, but the older SCM L’Invicibles are in a different league, ridiculously bullet proof over engineered. I, when looking for a universal machine chose a SCM Si15, which has a slider able to cut up to 50” so fully capable of breaking down sheet material with am independent scribe , but has a really compact foot print and is a full rip saw with over 5” depth of cut. They are also cheap as chips secondhand when you can find one!

If it’s a hobby indulgence……and all of us would like to be able to……..get a Martin or Panhas. The only quibble I have with the modern high end commercial stuff is that there is a lot of electronics doing stuff that you can easily do yourself (great to enable you to pop anyone one the machine to load and unload) But takes away for me the joy of actually using the machine…..but that might be just me…..and when they go wrong, which they do eventually, they are bit expensive to repair and rapidly become obsolete when replacement PCBs are no longer available.

 

[heimlaga]

I only have experience with the SCM l'invincibile and Casadei lines and only with older machines. They are not as well made nor as well designed as a Martin or Panhans but quite good enough for those of us who don't run them 8 hours a day 5 days a week for 40 years straight.
For a part timer like me a late 1960-ies l'invincibile T160 (their top of the top line spindle moulder at the time) is quite good enough. It costed me less money than a new Chineese spindle moulder from Axminster plus a good bit of rebuild work.
The SCM spare parts department seems to be non-existant and their aftermarket service somewhere between a joke and a disaster. At least when talking machines over 20 years old.

Regarding the separates versus combination issue I run a Stenberg KEV 600 planer/thicknesser/table saw/ spindle moulder combination. The spindle moulder takes the most time to set up so I slowly came to realize that the spindle moulder is a machine I want to have separate. That is why I bought the l'invincibile T160.
When I can afford it I want to get a separate sliding table saw.
A planer/thicknesser combination works very well if you don't run it all day. A 60 cm capacity combination is way better than the 30 cm capacity separates that would barely fit into the same space. However I would prefere separates if I had room enough. However with the currest heating costs a combiation in a smaller workshop is a rather good idea for a part timer in our climate.

 

[CrabberOne]

I have a 2005 Felder CF731 which is a great quality machine however I would not buy another Felder machine. Their Service Department is dreadful and they are prepared to lie with impunity in relation to delivery dates. I am awaiting a part (the P-profile adaptor to the Aigner pressure module) that they initially stated was unavailable and that I would have to buy a new Aigner pressure module with the later profile. I referred them to Felder Service USA who were happy to supply it to American customers and I supplied the part no. They then said they were able to supply this part with a 4-week lead time. That lead time expired and I chased them up to be told that it would be another month. That has expired and I am now told another two weeks.
I am thankfully a hobbyist woodworker. If my business were to depend on Felder machinery then I would have gone bust.

In short: good machinery but their service is frighteningly poor such that my CF731 may soon feature in classifieds! (Certainly not for sale at the moment).

Hi folks,

Another age old comparison thread. I'm in the market for some new kit. A panel saw and a planer thicknesser.
I've been looking at the Felder K700 and AD741 (maybe AD941). I haven't had my hands on one yet, but spoke to an agent.

I've also been looking at SCM but find it harder to understand or identify a comparable machine. I'll ring a dealer today.

I was wondering if anyone has experience of the build quality, ease of use/service, backup service, etc. of these machines?

Would greatly appreciate any input!

Thanks in Advance.