Schools and snow

[Digit]

What Dick said earlier about large schools now as against the village schools of my days is of course completely correct.
Our local school is two miles from the nearest village with only two families within walking distance. All staff drive in and the rest of the pupils are bussed in or are dropped off by their parents.
As it's a modern building it might be fair to ask why it was built where it is of course.

Roy.

 

[matt]

I love my local council - they look after us so well. Just witnessed a JCB in our close clearing the snow. Earlier today they emailed their "flock" to let us know what's happening with regard to clearing the snow and ice etc and also the other services. The schools have been open.

I fell over in the snow twice yesterday, on my drive, collecting the bin from the roadside. I thought slippers were called "slippers" because you slip your feet in to them. Now I realise it's because they are really really really bad for trying to walk in the snow. After righting myself for the second time I found myself in a state of temporary paralysis - standing stock still for fear of one false move. Only time will tell if my neighbours witnessed my comedy moment/s...

OK, back to the country being useless / run by people who are lesser beings than ourselves / health and safety gone mad / should I use an RCD (oh no, that's another thread) / schools ("don't even get me started...") / harumph, sigh, tsk tsk tsk..........................

 

[Tony Spear]

Last year our local farmer ploughd the roads around the Villge as it was neccessary for his crew to get about feeding cattle, moving muck out of the byres etc. When he'd done that he rang the County Council and asked them where else might he plough in order to help out.He was then told "Oh, you can't do that (Insurance, Elf 'n Safety, lack of training etc. etc.) His reply was that next time it happened he'd plough where he bloody well thought it would help and say nothing to the Council.

The last few days they've been out during most of the hours of daylight doing just that, but that doesn't solve the ice problem. It's helped a little but as Oxfordshire has been one of the coldest places in Southern England over the last few nights, the rural roads are still very iffy. (Even last year, I managed to get my Land Rover sideways on some of the ice that was about. I reckon that I personally would have been better off on untouched pristine snow. Unfortunately it's currently off the road so even that option isn't open to me now.

According to the County Council, they've only been able to grit/salt 29% of the roads that they are responsible for (M40 and A34 are Highways Agency's responsibility). Add to that the fact that as somebody said earlier the salt is innefective below -7C and it's -10 outside my door at this moment I expect the roads in and out of the Village tomorrow to be pretty dodgy.

As far as the Buses are concerned our Village bus hasn't run since the weekend (they don't run Mondays or Thursdays) and I'm in some doubt as to them running tomorrow. They also do the rural school runs and the local routes in and around some of the local towns and all of those were cancelled as well.

As they are only a mile or so from the coldest place in England last night (RAF Benson -17.7C) I assume that they can't even get out of the Village where their depot is sited in order to get to their routes.

 

[Smudger]

The 'Britain is Useless' brigade might like to give their opinion on this story:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8445613.stm

Which suggests that we are far from alone in finding the current weather difficult.

 

[RogerS]

Yup, I was talking to a Danish girl yesterday who told me that her mother (a teacher) had rung to say she couldn't get to school. After chattinh for a while comparing our two countries, she put things in perspective by saying 'Yes, we generally are prepared for winter, snow and ice but when you get a metre of snow overnight, there's not a lot you can do'.

 

[jlawrence]

That's the thing Roger.
People are comparing ourselves with countries that regularly get snow and saying they're struggling as well. They're struggling because they're getting feet (or meters) of snow - not a couple of inches.
We have the equipment in this country to cope, it's just that 'some' councils won't make use of it (or perhaps can't) because of perceived H&S issues. There are plenty of farmers that would help if allowed (as witnessed in some counties) but some (many) councils likely can't afford to pay for them.
Yes, it's bloody cold - a lot colder than it normally is. But to say we don't often get snow/cold weather is simply a lie - we get it every single bloody year, that's pretty regular to me.
Yes, we've always struggled with snow. When I was little I'm sure snow used to fall a foot at a time, yes we struggled but life went on - it didn't grind to a halt.

 

[Smudger]

Any evidence for all those assumptions?

 

[RogerS]

..... not a couple of inches.
.....

Most of the country has signifantly more than 'a couple' of inches. Couple = two. Most of the country is in six inches or more. The low temperature and its' duration is now the coldest/longest for 20 or so years.

Parts of the country do get regular snowfalls. They have the kit to deal with it - and for most of the time, they cope. I'm thinking areas such as Yorkshire. Here on the Worcs/Hereford border, it's only the second significant (ie more than one inch) snowfall in 20 years. I'd prefer my council tax going towards something of value like education than having 48 gritters mothballed for 19 years.

 

[jlawrence]

Evidence of what ?
That we're being compared with other countries that have received much more snow than us ?
OR that the councils just can't (perhaps) afford to use the farmers etc that they could ?
I've no evidence of this but given the cut backs that they're having to talk about around here it seems a logical assumption.
Is the use of farmers down to local councils to pay for - probably I suspect. It should really be paid for by central government as the councils won't have an allocation in their budgets to pay for it, and so simply won't have the spare cash to allow it to happen.
I think they've managed to keep most of the major routes open, but as can be seen around the country that has pretty much exhausted the various councils resources and their snow ploughs etc are pretty much taken up keeping those routes operational. It's no good having the major roads open if you can't f'in get onto them or once you get off them you can't get to the various industrial estates etc. People aren't struggling to get to work because the main roads are dangerous, they're struggling because they can't actually get to the main roads.
Perhaps that is just as much down to individual attitudes as to the councils. I know that years ago we use to go out and help the grown ups clearing paths and roads so that they could get to work. That doesn't happen nowadays and people generally expect that sort of thing to be done for them - yet they will winge at any increases in tax needed to pay for it.
How many people actually own a snow shovel ?
In many other countries people are expected to help in the clearing, in fact in some it is a legal requirement (Canada for one I believe). Here people expect everything to be done for them.

 

[jlawrence]

That's the thing Roger. I don't think it should be the responsibility of local councils to provide this sort of resource. It should be funded and organised centrally.

 

[RogerS]

.....Here people expect everything to be done for them.

This 'people' doesn't.

 

[dedee]

6" of snow over the past 3 or 4 days here. Schools open. Pre-school and primary. Both head teachers live in walking distance of school as do at least 4 of the 7 teachers.

The roads though! Still not seen any evidence of a gritting lorry. The main road from Caen to Caboug has not been gritted and IMHO that is the way it should be.

Biggest problem around here is the the flour delivery to the baker. The large lorries are banned from the roads (another good idea) so the flour is being delivered by small van and hence arrives a lot later. No fresh bread here yesterday until lunchtime - SCANDALOUS.

Very very pretty though!

Andy

 

[bugbear]

Yup, I was talking to a Danish girl yesterday who told me that her mother (a teacher) had rung to say she couldn't get to school. After chattinh for a while comparing our two countries, she put things in perspective by saying 'Yes, we generally are prepared for winter, snow and ice but when you get a metre of snow overnight, there's not a lot you can do'.

yes - in Canada they simply close minor roads for the winter, and put their effort into the arteries.

How do isolated people manage? Snowmobiles.

So if you want to follow Canada's "they can handle in other countries" example, you may be involved in some personal expenditure.

BugBear

 

[treeturner123]

Dedee, you are right to say that articulated lorries should be banned in this weather. Not only do we hear constant reports of knife-jacked lorries causing blockages to the roads in snowy conditions, but I actually saw 2 when driving home on Wednesday from Orpington to Tewkesbury. Due to M3 & M4 problems, I came over the Cotswolds on the A40. No problems apart from 2 occasions where artic lorries had tried to drive and ended up well across the road. Fortunately cars and small lorries could squeeze round, but surely by now transport firms are aware that power = control, no power ie on the trailing section = no control! Anyway apart from these 2 it was a really lovely drive, little traffic and spectacular scenes. The only time I got stuck was trying to get into my drive!

Phil

 

[RogerS]

That's the thing Roger. I don't think it should be the responsibility of local councils to provide this sort of resource. It should be funded and organised centrally.

There i do agree with you. For example, Herefordshire is one of the least crowded counties but equally that means less council tax pool since less houses and business etc and yet they have one of the most extensive rural road networks. Very difficult to budget for that.

 

[matt]

I don't follow the news as it rarely representative of reality; however, from conversations I've had with people in various parts of the country, I don't get the impression anyone is really struggling. There's conversation to be had but no real indication of a real struggle. By contrast, we do seem to struggle to cope with rain in some parts, in a way were the community are quite helpless. Strikes me that this is a higher priority than bolstering our resources to deal with occasional, short term, snow.

 

[jlawrence]

BugBear, personally I have no problem with spending some money .
If that's what it took to live in the countryside then so be it. I was brought up in the middle of no where and would move back to the sticks at the drop of a hat - if only I could afford the sort of house I want.
If I were to live away from the towns then I'd expect to have 'some' additional personal expenditure in order to cope during bad weather.

Perhaps the example of Canada might be a bit extreme (since they have serious snowfall) but it was more to show that people can be expected to keep a walkway clear in front of their house.

 

[Digit]

On the subject of cost jl, North Yorks have found it cheaper to supply farmers with ploughs and grit than keeping gritters on standby etc according a report on the Net.

Roy.

 

[jpt]

On the subject of farmers I was listening to local radio yesterday and they were talking to a farmer who had been supplied with a snow plow by the council. He said at the time it was delivered several years ago the supplier of the plow sent along 2 engineers to adapt the fittings on the plow so that it would fit his tractor and also to train him in its use, which took them 2 days. He also attended a 2 day course with the council about clearing the roads and the area he was allocated.

Since then he has never been used by the council to clear the roads despite him calling them several times over the years. Everytime he is told the same thing it is OK we have it under controll despite the only roads in his allocated area that are cleared are the main ones. One year he just went out and did it and he got into trouble with the council. They said he was only to use the plow on instruction from the council and if he used it without this permission he would be prosucuted for misuse of coucil property and endangering the public.

He has talked this over with other farmers in the area who have also been supplied with plows and they have been told the same thing. One farmer was told by a council official that the reason they werent used was due to costs. They pay the farmers for their time plus they say there is an additional cost involved in that according to their own rules all plows must be checked by trained technicians everytime they are fitted to a vehicle and after 10 hours of use. Also the operators must be trained and assesed every year and monitored while working to make sure they are doing the job properlly.

The reason for these rules is to cover themselves incase someone tries to sue the council after having an accident on a clered road. So the upshot is it is cheaper for the council to leave minor roads uncleared and that way they are not liable in any way if accidents happen on them.

john

 

[Smudger]

6" of snow over the past 3 or 4 days here. Schools open. Pre-school and primary. Both head teachers live in walking distance of school as do at least 4 of the 7 teachers.

Andy

Of course it is still quite normal for collèges in France to have a flat for the head on the premises. I've been entertained to afternoon tea in one - most civilised...