Saw stop ( USA )

[Jacob]

..... The electric motor braking you refers to are to stop a blade after being shut off and has nothing to do with the subject of this thread.

It has now!

 

[Bingy man]

I'm sure it's only a matter of time before SawStop type technology is seen in all commercial workshops here in the UK. If an employee cuts their finger off and you don't have SawStop I'm sure there will be a case to say you haven't done all you can to keep them safe...........

Any additional safety feature has to be a good thing.

Several years ago when working on a gas back boiler I discovered the external air vent was blocked with cling film and as a result the boiler was sooted up , and part of the flue liner was obstructed . I asked when it was last serviced and he replied years ago because it’s too expensive but it’s ok as I have a carbon monoxide alarm . It was sitting on the floor under a table . When I checked it the batteries had leaked out and were corroded . His wife was not impressed . Heard lots of shouting and cussing as I left the house . I guess that some folk are blind to safety and it’s those types that not even a saw stop device can help ..

 

[Jacob]

Jacob, I'm making 2 push sticks The first is done, 18" in length, traditional style.
I have difficulty thinking of how to use the second. To keep the piece against the fence without causing binding on the blade, it has to be applied ahead of the blade. A featherboard does that well. If it is used to flick offcuts aside, will a less heavy 24" stick with a rudimentary notch work as well? I always use the bladeguard and the splitter.

View attachment 173607

Looks like that oversized guard would get in the way of your push sticks. Riving knife and crown guard much neater, simpler, safer.
The way to get the push stick habit is to use them until it becomes natural and first choice everytime

 

[Cabinetman]

Jacob, I'm making 2 push sticks The first is done, 18" in length, traditional style.
I have difficulty thinking of how to use the second. To keep the piece against the fence without causing binding on the blade, it has to be applied ahead of the blade. A featherboard does that well. If it is used to flick offcuts aside, will a less heavy 24" stick with a rudimentary notch work as well? I always use the bladeguard and the splitter.

View attachment 173607

Here you go, this is from a large thread that I did on push sticks. Ian

 

[Trextr7monkey]

Saw ( no pun intended) a demo of the Festool saw stop at Harrogate wood work show. Very impressive see video. I could see a use for this in training environments

 

[Jacob]

Saw ( no pun intended) a demo of the Festool saw stop at Harrogate wood work show. Very impressive see video.

The silly sod isn't using push sticks!
He is demonstrating and cultivating the worst and most stupid sort of sort of handling you could imagine.
He shouldn't be anywhere near woodwork machinery to start with.
What will happen if he has a go on a machine without this mad gadgetry i.e. almost all of them in existence?

I could see a use for this in training environments

Training for what exactly? How to survive as a complete moron?

Did you see a demo of push sticks in action? I guess not, there's no money in them.

 

[Bruce Mack]

Looks like that oversized guard would get in the way of your push sticks. Riving knife and crown guard much neater, simpler, safer.
The way to get the push stick habit is to use them until it becomes natural and first choice everytime

The UK and Europe are ahead of the US. Riving knives became mandatory here in 2009, well after I bought my saw. I haven't seen the crown guard here. A pushstick as well as a featherboard have to do.

 

[Cabinetman]

I know a SawStop works extremely fast but I wonder if in some circumstances ( for instance if your hand is being pushed very fast in a kickback accident ) whether you could still get a deep wound or even lose a finger as the blade slows and descends, after all it doesn’t start it’s sequence till flesh touches blade.
I remember seeing a video of the inventor edging his finger closer and closer till he touched the blade, it was impressive how he didn’t get a cut, but that was slow.
And I certainly wouldn’t want to be the idio t in the vid above demonstrating that cut with his hand between the blade and the fence.
Obviously there isn’t going to be a problem if push sticks are used. (Repeat ad nauseam)
Ian

 

[Molynoox]

If it did not then it would not have any use, it's purpose is to stop the blade spinning once turned off but trying to fix unsafe working practices with technology is not going to stop accidents, it will instill the attitude that the machine is now safe so I do not have to worry anymore.

I think overall it would be safer than a saw without the technology. I can't imagine many people ignoring the dangers because they know they have the tech. to protect them.

An interesting statistic, if anybody has access to them, would be to understand if the amount of car accidents increased after the date that seat belts became mandatory? I very much doubt it personally

 

[Molynoox]

I know a SawStop works extremely fast but I wonder if in some circumstances ( for instance if your hand is being pushed very fast in a kickback accident ) whether you could still get a deep wound or even lose a finger as the blade slows and descends, after all it doesn’t start it’s sequence till flesh touches blade.
I remember seeing a video of the inventor edging his finger closer and closer till he touched the blade, it was impressive how he didn’t get a cut, but that was slow.
And I certainly wouldn’t want to be the idio t in the vid above demonstrating that cut with his hand between the blade and the fence.
Obviously there isn’t going to be a problem if push sticks are used. (Repeat ad nauseam)
Ian

I've often wondered that before too... In the case you describe... it's fast working against fast, so who wins.

 

[Agent_zed]

It would seem some people opposing the use of such a system seem to have the notion that it's so perfectly lovely to stick your fingers into the sawstop saws that people will be sawing with their eyes closed on roller skates.

A. It will cost you £60+ for a replacement stop block
B. It will cost you £X to replace the blade
C. it will cost you time
D. You will probably still get cut a little bit. Or a lot if for some reason the system doesn't work.


For all the talk of 'safe working practices' always saving the day, I wonder how many people also have a remote emergency footswitch so they can stop the machine without having to take their hands off the workpiece and fumble for the switch on the machine (which would be pretty hard if you happen to be ripping 6ft lengths. Perhaps a really long pushstick you can hold in your teeth to push the button? I use pushsticks (where necessary) and have a footswitch. The footswitch also serves as a safety if I walk away from the machine and someone (like a child) decides to start it when my back is turned. Sure safe working practices will stop most accidents but they will not account for every eventuality, especially on machines that are portable as you change all of the variables.

I don't drive around in my car thinking it will be great if I crash as my airbags will gently bring me to a stop. No, I think I hope i never have to use them as they will punch me in the face, burn my arms, probably deafen me and cause a huge cost to replacing them. But they are there should the worst happen.

As already said though, if you don't want one don't get one. You can turn the airbags off in your car also and just drive safer.

 

[Doug71]

This video should start in the right place showing someone pushing their sausage into a SawStop enabled saw at quite a pace. The sausage gets a decent sized cut but not that bad considering.

 

[Spectric]

if anybody has access to them, would be to understand if the amount of car accidents increased after the date that seat belts became mandatory? I very much doubt it personally

Seatbelts alone probably had minimal effect but it has been reconised that when a car is sold on the basis of safety, ie airbags, side impact bars etc etc that the driver now feeling he is in such a safe vehicle does tend to take more chances but this also applies to people buying the larger SUV's simply on the basis that they will come out of an accident better providing the other vehicle is smaller and the probability of that is on there side.

 

[Molynoox]

Seatbelts alone probably had minimal effect but it has been reconised that when a car is sold on the basis of safety, ie airbags, side impact bars etc etc that the driver now feeling he is in such a safe vehicle does tend to take more chances but this also applies to people buying the larger SUV's simply on the basis that they will come out of an accident better providing the other vehicle is smaller and the probability of that is on there side.

A little anecdotal but probably a fair point all the same.
Martin

 

[Jacob]

In terms of comparative safety systems the domestic open fire is a good one. Two simple safety measures are fire guards and pokers. Roughly equivalent to crown guards and push sticks.
Would a rapid acting electronic device save personal injury?
Seems unlikely to me. not least because even without these protections everybody knows to keep their hands well away from the fire.
How come woodworkers have so much difficulty getting to grips with such and obvious idea?

 

[Molynoox]

In terms of comparative safety systems the domestic open fire is a good one. Two simple safety measures are fire guards and pokers. Roughly equivalent to crown guards and push sticks.
Would a rapid acting electronic device save personal injury?
Seems unlikely to me. not least because even without these protections everybody knows to keep their hands well away from the fire.
How come woodworkers have so much difficulty getting to grips with such and obvious idea?

Safe working practices + additional safeguarding tech. = maximum safety.

You seem to be seeing this as one thing or the other, but they are in fact compound and accumulative. You can have your cake and eat it.

 

[Jacob]

Safe working practices + additional safeguarding tech. = maximum safety.

But "diminishing marginal returns" i.e. not worth the bother if you already have safe practices already in hand. In fact could be counter productive if they create a cosy delusion of extra safety.

 

[Agent_zed]

But "diminishing marginal returns" i.e. not worth the bother if you already have safe practices already in hand

I haven't checked their sources but

https://www.chaffinluhana.com/table-saw/
'Table saw accidents account for somewhere in the neighborhood of 67,000 recorded injuries every year. While lacerations are the most common injury, around 4,000 accidents with table saws involve amputations as a result of direct contact with the rotating blade of table saws. The medical costs for treating table saw injuries have been estimated at more than $2.1 billion every year'

Would seem to be very much worth the bother, from both financial and injury terms.

There will always be a trade off with risk/reward but clearly the risk is currently too high. This is no different to any other thing in life. Take food processors for example. Why do they need to have a mechanism to only allow it to work if the lid is in place. If you have safe practices you would just put the lid on before turning it on, no need for a complicated switch. Oh dear little jimmy decided to be like mummy or daddy and put his hand in while their back was turned.

i do however object to the technology being held by one company. When MIPS in bike helmets was developed they licenced it rather than hold back potentially life saving tech. Would be good if sawstop did the same.

 

[Jacob]

I haven't checked their sources but

https://www.chaffinluhana.com/table-saw/
'Table saw accidents account for somewhere in the neighborhood of 67,000 recorded injuries every year. While lacerations are the most common injury, around 4,000 accidents with table saws involve amputations as a result of direct contact with the rotating blade of table saws. The medical costs for treating table saw injuries have been estimated at more than $2.1 billion every year'

Would seem to be very much worth the bother, from both financial and injury terms.

There will always be a trade off with risk/reward but clearly the risk is currently too high. This is no different to any other thing in life. Take food processors for example. Why do they need to have a mechanism to only allow it to work if the lid is in place. If you have safe practices you would just put the lid on before turning it on, no need for a complicated switch. Oh dear little jimmy decided to be like mummy or daddy and put his hand in while their back was turned.

i do however object to the technology being held by one company. When MIPS in bike helmets was developed they licenced it rather than hold back potentially life saving tech. Would be good if sawstop did the same.

That's USA.
Someone needs to teach them safe practices - much more effective over a whole range of machinery and very cheap to implement

 

[Agent_zed]

That's USA.

oh heck I've got a Dewalt blade on my saw and they are American. I'll change it for a Freud as that's made in Italy, so I'll be safe.