Saw stop ( USA )

[Jacob]

oh heck I've got a Dewalt blade on my saw and they are American. I'll change it for a Freud as that's made in Italy, so I'll be safe.

You've missed the point - USA is notoriously backwards in terms of safety. Even riving knives pus crown guards are uncommon apparently. Gets commented on often, it's not just me!
Track down the equivalent figures for the UK?

 

[Jacob]

......nism to only allow it to work if the lid is in place. If you have safe practices you would just put the lid on before turning it on, no need for a complicated switch.

It's not a complicated switch.

 

[Molynoox]

But "diminishing marginal returns" i.e. not worth the bother if you already have safe practices already in hand. In fact could be counter productive if they create a cosy delusion of extra safety.

Hypothetical question: if you lost your hand in a table saw event next week, would you opt to buy your hand back for £1000 if that was an option?

 

[Jacob]

Hypothetical question: if you lost your hand in a table saw event next week,

It's not going to happen, next week or any week ever.
Basic rule is - don't put your hands too near a moving saw blade. Not difficult to understand. Would a diagram help?

 

[Agent_zed]

It's not a complicated switch.

There are a lot of complicated things that are incredibly reliable and make our world a lot safer place. I don't like flying but if I had to I would prefer a modern plane with multiple layers of redundancy, hydraulics and computer controlled/monitored everything, than flying in a lancaster bomber.

I like simple. but simple doesn't always mean it's the best or safest way to do something. change generally occurs when there is a problem. Clearly trying to get people not to cut their digits off is a problem so change is needed. Sure you could try and train people, but just like driving where you train people to drive correctly and pass a test to only ignore that training and drive like idiots, the only thing you can then do is bring in counter measures like speed cameras and enforcement.

Whilst I have no proof, I doubt mandatory table saw training would have as big an impact as you may think. No training covers every possible scenario. People do dumb things sometimes, and sometimes things just happen that are unforeseen.

 

[Molynoox]

It's not going to happen, next week or any week ever.
Basic rule is - don't put your hands too near a moving saw blade. Not difficult to understand. Would a diagram help?

So your position is that accidents don't happen to experienced woodworkers?

A diagram would help, yes.

 

[Jacob]

T......

Whilst I have no proof, I doubt mandatory table saw training would have as big an impact as you may think.

Not proposing that but if it helped get across the message to the very few who don't get it, that you shouldn't have your hands too close to a moving cutter, then it could be very effective.
Might help if there was a ban on bad practice demos such as seen on youtube

 

[Jacob]

So your position is that accidents don't happen to experienced woodworkers?

No. My position is that you won't get a cut if you don't have your hands too close to a cutter.
Or a burn from a fire.
Or a bite from a bitey animal.....etc etc

A diagram would help, yes.

In which case maybe you should think of early retirement while you are still in one piece!
You are still in one piece I hope - or how many limbs have you sawn off so far?

 

[Molynoox]

No. My position is that you won't get a cut if you don't have your hands too close to a cutter.
Or a burn from a fire.
Or a bite from a bitey animal.....etc etc

In which case maybe you should think of early retirement while you are still in one piece!
You are still in one piece I hope - or how many limbs have you sawn off so far?

Would you be able to draw me a diagram please, I still don't get it?

 

[mudman]

Would you be able to draw me a diagram please, I still don't get it?

He won't be able to but I thought this might help to explain things.

 

[Inspector]

i do however object to the technology being held by one company. When MIPS in bike helmets was developed they licenced it rather than hold back potentially life saving tech. Would be good if sawstop did the same.

The inventor went to all the machine makers in the US when he came up with the device. They didn't want anything to do with it because among other things, it would require spending money on new tooling to make, felt it would make them liable if someone got hurt with older saws without the device and were not required to so why bother. Then he set up his own company and started to sell them himself. Defended his patents when Bosch tried to make a saw similar to his only after they were successfully sued by a man that cut off some fingers. There is more but that is some of it.

Pete

 

[Bruce Mack]

But "diminishing marginal returns" i.e. not worth the bother if you already have safe practices already in hand. In fact could be counter productive if they create a cosy delusion of extra safety.

Jacob - I cannot imagine feeling safe with my hand next to a rotating blade that could maim me. Having done a couple of dumb things in my life, I have seen the opposing forces of stupidity and divine intervention. I understand your point. I hope you can respect another's wish to have a great safety device running in the background.

 

[Jacob]

He won't be able to but I thought this might help to explain things.

View attachment 173651

I take it you think it is OK to have your hands too near the cutter (which summarises my advice)? Plus riving-knife/crown-guard of course
Could you explain why? What would be the advantage?

 

[Terry - Somerset]

I can only assume Jacob would be happier if driving a car without the benefit of ABS, crumple zones, disc brakes, seat belts, safety windscreens, collapsible steering column, side impact protection etc.

This is how cars used to be - reliant upon the skill and competence of the driver to pilot their vehicle safely.

Personally - skill + training + embedded safety trumps skill + training alone every time.

 

[mudman]

I take it you think it is OK to have your hands too near the cutter (which summarises my advice)? Plus riving-knife/crown-guard of course
Could you explain why? What would be the advantage?

Woooooooosh!
That's the sound of the point soaring majestically over your head.

 

[Jacob]

I can only assume Jacob would be happier if driving a car without the benefit of ABS, crumple zones, disc brakes, seat belts, safety windscreens, collapsible steering column, side impact protection etc.

....

Of course not.
The idea I'm trying to get across is that it's safer for woodworkers to keep their hands well away from spinning cutters.
Really weird that I keep having to repeat this.
The simplest way is to use push sticks
It doesn't seem to be a difficult concept and most people do this without giving it a thought.
If you were feeding a wild beast in a cage, would it not be a good idea to offer the meat on the end of a stick, rather than with your bare hands?
It's not difficult. Think on, but you really must try harder!

 

[Molynoox]

Of course not.
The idea I'm trying to get across is that it's safer for woodworkers to keep their hands well away from spinning cutters.
Really weird that I keep having to repeat this.
The simplest way is to use push sticks
It doesn't seem to be a difficult concept and most people do this without giving it a thought.
If you were feeding a wild beast in a cage, would it not be a good idea to offer the meat on the end of a stick, rather than with your bare hands?
It's not difficult. Think on, but you really must try harder!

your point: its safe to keep your hands away from the blade
other peoples point: its safe to keep your hands away from the blade and even safer to keep your hands away from the blade in addition to having an electronic safety aid running alongside in parallel
what you hear: its safer to have an electronic safety aid instead of keeping your hands away from the blade
how you respond: ad hominen attacks regarding other peoples inability to understand your point

I haven't yet figured out if you are genuinely struggling to understand what is being written, or if you are deliberately straw-manning other peoples arguments.

 

[Jacob]

your point: its safe to keep your hands away from the blade
other peoples point: its safe to keep your hands away from the blade and even safer to keep your hands away from the blade in addition to having an electronic safety aid running alongside in parallel
what you hear: its safer to have an electronic safety aid instead of keeping your hands away from the blade
how you respond: ad hominen attacks regarding other peoples inability to understand your point

I haven't yet figured out if you are genuinely struggling to understand what is being written, or if you are deliberately straw-manning other peoples arguments.

You've missed the point, which is that if you get the simple hands-off/away idea you will never touch a moving blade and never need an expensive protective electronic gadget, which is not even fail safe.

 

[Molynoox]

You've missed the point, which is that if you get the simple hands-off/away idea you will never touch a moving blade and never need an expensive protective electronic gadget, which is not even fail safe.

you're conflating miscomprehension and disagreement
I both understood your point and I disagree with it; it doesn't have to be one or the other
people other than yourself can have valid opinions and conclusions

 

[Jacob]

you're conflating miscomprehension and disagreement
I both understood your point and I disagree with it; it doesn't have to be one or the other
people other than yourself can have valid opinions and conclusions

It's about probability. If you are an inexperienced silly person you may need it. If you know basic safety procedures you probably won't.