Rounded bevels?

[Phil Pascoe]

:-k I have never tried rounded bevels so I can't (at present) comment on whether they they work or not, but something occurred to me yesterday - they are obviously easier to grind than straight ones so why in all the thousands and thousands of new and used chisels I've seen in my life have I never seen one? They are not an innovation, so presumably in the case of second hand ones many people have changed, and then changed back?

 

[Dangermouse]

Your a very naughty boy, posting another bevel / sharpening thread ! straight to the naughty step for you my lad !!! :evil: :shock: (hammer) #-o

 

[Phil Pascoe]

:lol:

 

[Jacob]

.... why in all the thousands and thousands of new and used chisels I've seen in my life have I never seen one? ....

Never noticed one you mean. They are common. People complain about them and having to regrind bevels "correctly".
But new are always finished on machine, either flat bevel or slightly hollow ground, never rounded.
Many old chisels and plane blades were rounded and can still turn up in that condition. I'm surprised if you have never noticed. I've got a box of old woodies here and many of them are rounded to some extent.
It's a normal by product of freehand honing and preferred by carvers especially.
I think if you look more closely you will find them - but not if a latter day sharpener has got to them first!

PS I'll check my collection of as yet untouched old woodies and report back. ISTR they are very variable. But anything goes as long as the edge is sharp and not too far off 30º

 

[Chrispy]

Hard hat check, stab vest check, riot sheild check. right my point of view over this subject.
Carving tools rounded yes better control when carving.
planes and chisels are different, think grinding on a old hand cranked wet stone out side in the rain and cold, so only done as last resort, then think speed on a day to day basis whats the quickest way to sharpen a dull edge or may be to remove a nick? well for me if its ground at say 25d then hone at 27d, now that works for a dozen or so sharpens but the new bevel is now getting quite wide and honing slow so the angle creeps up to 28, then 29 and 30d over time, this creates the famous round or multi facited bevel, its a result of time not of design.
Second hand tools have often been prepared for the market place and reground so have lost there time made rounding.


Head down quick back in the bunker................

 

[Jacob]

Hard hat check, stab vest check, riot sheild check. right my point of view over this subject.
Carving tools rounded yes better control when carving.
planes and chisels are different, think grinding on a old hand cranked wet stone out side in the rain and cold, so only done as last resort, then think speed on a day to day basis whats the quickest way to sharpen a dull edge or may be to remove a nick? well for me if its ground at say 25d then hone at 27d, now that works for a dozen or so sharpens but the new bevel is now getting quite wide and honing slow so the angle creeps up to 28, then 29 and 30d over time, this creates the famous round or multi facited bevel, its a result of time not of design.
Second hand tools have often been prepared for the market place and reground so have lost there time made rounding.


Head down quick back in the bunker................

You can do it badly as you describe , but it's not compulsory. :roll:
If you grind on a wheel you get the familiar two bevel; grind about 25º hone about 30º
But if you haven't a wheel (or if you wish to avoid it) you can carry on honing carefully a la P Sellers* You get a rounded bevel, edge stays at 30º, and never needs re-grinding again.
I really don't know why people can't understand it, it's not rocket science and yes it works just as we say it does.
But don't worry about it if you don't get it - I expect your methods work OK.

*Sellers' question and answers will probably help you if you are struggling!

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I wasn't questioning whether it works or not, I was merely commenting that I have never seen one. They may be extremely common - but I've never seen one. A bevel with two flats on it isn't quite the same as something deliberately ground round.

 

[Racers]

The closet thing to a rounded bevel I have found are badly sharpened plane blades, probably user error rather than the best thing since sliced bread.

Pete

 

[dh7892]

The main reason that I switched over to free-hand sharpening was precisely because I noticed that all of the edged tools that I inherited from my long-deceased grandfather all had rounded bevels.

My first instinct was: "oh dear, I'll have a lot of work to re-grind all of these". Then I realised that I was being incredibly conceited to assume that my way of ding things was right and he was wrong. Especially since I'm sure he was a much better craftsman that I am. So, instead, I decided to learn from his example and just continue sharpening in the same way that he probably did.

I'm glad I did. It's saved me a load of time.

So, yes you do see tools with rounded bevels. Especially if they've actually been used!

 

[Jacob]

I wasn't questioning whether it works or not, I was merely commenting that I have never seen one. They may be extremely common - but I've never seen one. A bevel with two flats on it isn't quite the same as something deliberately ground round.

No you have completely missed the point. Rounded bevels aren't deliberately ground round. There is no point in the rounded bevel itself. It's an incidental by product of a quick and lazy freehand sharpening method - see Seller video link above.
So it may show as completely rounded as in Sellers photos, or may be just a bit rounded, taking off the arrises of a two bevel edge etc. It's very unlikely that you have never seen one. If you really have seen 1000s of old chisels you just haven't been very observant. Personally I've encountered every possible variety - and that's in just a few hundred chisels!
It's the method, not the rounding, which counts; basically backing off the bevel and keeping a 30º edge as you go.
It's ******* difficult to explain, considering how easy and simple it is!

 

[Richard T]

Phil, if you ever get the chance to look at the bevels on the likes of tools from house clearances/new lots at auction - in other words tools that have come straight from their last owners and users and have not been messed about by dealers or modern restorers .... they have a single, convex bevel. I've seen hundreds of these.

I think things must have changed when people started using modern, slow electric grinding wheels that leave a concave bevel and necessitate a secondary bevel and the previous way with nowt but an oil stone seems to have been lost.

Roll - on the sharpening do ....

 

[Harbo]

Yes but the rounded bevel Guru is not demonstrating now!

 

[Jacob]

Yes but the rounded bevel Guru is not demonstrating now!

Hope you don't mean me! I'm not a guru I'm just a sceptic (you name it - I doubt it). And particularly sceptical about gurus - a very dodgy bunch IMHO. :roll:
Yes sorry I won't be there, but you are welcome to drop in here any time (PM first!).

 

[James C]

I must admit that the slightly rounded bevel creeps into my sharpening routine when I'm quickly sharpening and stropping chisels. I was worried at first but the edges are still very sharp.

When I first took up woodworking I went and had a look at my Grandad's chisels and was allowed to take one or two. The ones that still remain have rounded bevels from when he sharpened them freehand and they are damn sharp! Much to my detriment handling them for the first time.

I don't think that it necessarily means badly sharpened.

 

[Carl P]

I am very much a novice in these matters, but I can't see any reason why either method should be more or less sharp, is there any advantage to either shape of bevel in practical use?

Cheerio,

Carl

 

[Sheffield Tony]

I know I shouldn't, but ...

You get a rounded bevel, edge stays at 30º, and never needs re-grinding again.
I really don't know why people can't understand it, it's not rocket science and yes it works just as we say it does.

I have read descriptions of this, and the general gist is that you start your stroke at the desired edge angle (of say 30 degrees), then lower the handle through the stroke to make the rounded bevel. What I don't see is why; if you start at 30 degrees, once you lower the handle the rest of the stroke has no effect upon the cutting edge, and just removes metal that makes no difference ?

 

[Jacob]

I know I shouldn't, but ...

You get a rounded bevel, edge stays at 30º, and never needs re-grinding again.
I really don't know why people can't understand it, it's not rocket science and yes it works just as we say it does.

I have read descriptions of this, and the general gist is that you start your stroke at the desired edge angle (of say 30 degrees), then lower the handle through the stroke to make the rounded bevel. What I don't see is why; if you start at 30 degrees, once you lower the handle the rest of the stroke has no effect upon the cutting edge, and just removes metal that makes no difference ?

It's obvious if you try it, though I'm not too sure what it is you don't understand.

 

[Sheffield Tony]

Ok, what I don't get is this. If you proceed with the "rounded bevel" approach of dipping the handle end of the tool through the sharpening stroke, during only the very first bit of the stroke is the the bit that matters - the cutting edge - touching the stone. For the rest of the stroke you are doing work removing metal behind the edge that makes little difference - so why not keep the angle fixed and have a single bevel (removing less metal) or just grind that bit away using a quiicker method.

I don't doubt that you can sharpen a tool that way. I can see that if you want that rounded shape e.g., on a carving tool, it is a good method. But I can't see why it is any better than any other method.

 

[Richard T]

I don't think it is any better than any other method Tony, it's just that you only need a stone.

I take several strokes on the bevel, slowly raising the back end of the iron/chisel until the edge is in contact with the stone and I am raising a burr. Never any need for re - grinding unless you get a bad ding by finding a nail or dropping it on its edge etc.

 

[Jacob]

Ok, what I don't get is this. If you proceed with the "rounded bevel" approach of dipping the handle end of the tool through the sharpening stroke, during only the very first bit of the stroke is the the bit that matters - the cutting edge - touching the stone. For the rest of the stroke you are doing work removing metal behind the edge that makes little difference - so why not keep the angle fixed and have a single bevel

Keeping a fixed angle is more difficult (but don't let that put you off trying) and not having to be careful means you can finish the stroke with a bit of a thrust and make the whole thing quicker

(removing less metal) or just grind that bit away using a quiicker method.

Either way you remove the same amount of metal but you are doing it in one operation instad of two. See Sellers demo (link above) - it combines grinding and honing in one operation but on 3 stones. 2 will do for most purposes, one even.

I don't doubt that you can sharpen a tool that way. I can see that if you want that rounded shape e.g., on a carving tool, it is a good method. But I can't see why it is any better than any other method.

Quick and easy. No jigs or fancy kit. Works well on oil stones. It's a brain-off operation, you can do it while you are looking out of the window or watching the telly!