Regular Mortice Chisel or Bevel Edged for your Mortices

[Tasky]

Because some plonker who hadn't read the thread seemed to think I was recommending hand tool morticing instead of machine.

I'm actually more focussed the plonker who derides the insinuation of people's blind idolatry toward 'Garden Shed Gurus', with similarly blind idolatrous affirmation of scolding by some other guru whose own 'in the Trade' training would have been pretty much the same as those other 'I was in the Trade' gurus.
It's just another version of My God's Better Than Your God..... and we all know Crom is the mightiest of all gods anyway!

Just because one person is older and was taught earlier, it does not mean they are always right or that they were taught fully, effectively or correctly, especially under apprenticeships... and I'm not just talking about woodworking, either.

 

[D_W]

Who are the "gurus" who made an actual living doing work with the tools that they're using. I don't mean like traveled to the US and set up a woodworking school 35 years ago, I mean like fed themselves and their dependents for several decades making things for customers, unsubsidized.

I didn't go back and check Mr. Ford (didn't he have something to do with assembly line manufacturing?), but if Mr. Ford actually did work in the field before retiring to teaching, and did it for an appreciable amount of time, he probably has more credibility for *actual work* than many of the current gurus, who are more focused on getting beginners up and running.

Guaranteed the average experienced apprentice in a cabinet shop 200 years ago would have a lot more to teach us about hand methods than the average current instructor. We may find it more cryptic, less interesting, etc, but at least it would be proven.

A friend over here traveled to sheffield a few decades ago and saw someone sitting at the door of a shop setting saws for hire. With a hammer, in rhythm (as in something like a minute or two for an entire saw from start to finish). We have saw gurus now who make saws for amateurs - are we to believe that their methods (which need to sell to beginners) will be more credible for a skilled worker?

 

[NickN]

Who are the "gurus" who made an actual living doing work with the tools that they're using. I don't mean like traveled to the US and set up a woodworking school 35 years ago, I mean like fed themselves and their dependents for several decades making things for customers, unsubsidized.

I didn't go back and check Mr. Ford (didn't he have something to do with assembly line manufacturing?), but if Mr. Ford actually did work in the field before retiring to teaching, and did it for an appreciable amount of time, he probably has more credibility for *actual work* than many of the current gurus, who are more focused on getting beginners up and running.

You know as well as I do that the craftsmen and tradesmen out there who are busy feeding themselves and their dependents, unsubidised, haven't generally got time to be messing around making and editing videos for keyboard warriors on Youtube, therefore we only get to see those who have moved from making to teaching, and yes, one or two who have never been 'professionals' at making things feature too. However, if the only people eligible to teach were those aged 65+ the world would be a much poorer place as an awful lot of people reach that age and just want to chill out, cruising round the world, etc., so I for one am jolly grateful we have the vast number of free videos out there that, while perhaps not teaching the quickest and most efficient ways of woodworking, certainly teach achievable ways of doing it for the uneducated among us.

 

[Tasky]

I didn't go back and check Mr. Ford (didn't he have something to do with assembly line manufacturing?), but if Mr. Ford actually did work in the field before retiring to teaching, and did it for an appreciable amount of time, he probably has more credibility for *actual work* than many of the current gurus, who are more focused on getting beginners up and running.

I'm sure he's a very creditable mortise-holer..... still doesn't mean he's any good as either a teacher or even a general learning resource, any more than a top skateboarder is for learning about physics.
I'd not look to someone like that who has spent 45 years in the mortising industry if I want to learn about woodworking as a whole.... any more than I'd look to Joey Kramer, who has spent 47 years making a *STUNNING* amount of money playing single-stroke drum pattern rock music, if I wanna learn to play double-stroke Jazz and New Orleans drums... or Country Music drums (which is actually quite hard for most classic rock oriented drummers to play).

My own drum teacher had, unbeknownst to me until a good few years since I began with him, credits and credibility coming out the wazoo... plus change. Almost no-one would know his name, and yet almost everyone will have heard him playing at some point, and in most countries where English is at all used. A great many 'name' drummers (Phil Collins, Neil Peart, Ringo Starr, Keith Moon, Buddy Rich) worth their salt have their own books, their own DVDs, their own Signature™ range of Vic Firth™ drumsticks and an endorsement from Zildjian, Paiste, Meinl and Sabian... but very few can actually teach, often because they've gotten so good at doing the things they do every day in their little corner of The Trade that they have very little to teach someone who is of a much lower level. By contrast, someone who has a broader range of experience is at least better placed to give that and a good teacher will do so in an open fashion that lets you find your own best/preferred approach.

So even if Mister Ford is the absolute GOD of all things mortise, he's potentially of no use to anyone who isn't themselves an Archangel of mortise.

Guaranteed the average experienced apprentice in a cabinet shop 200 years ago would have a lot more to teach us about hand methods than the average current instructor. We may find it more cryptic, less interesting, etc, but at least it would be proven.

What's to be proven, though?
Either it works, or it doesn't... and unlike most other arguments about techniques, in this arena it's fairly cheap and easy to prove. Doesn't really matter who teaches it, who invented it, whose name is on this technique or that variant of someone else's technique, unless you're the one making money off it.

We have saw gurus now who make saws for amateurs - are we to believe that their methods (which need to sell to beginners) will be more credible for a skilled worker?

Depends on their chops (pun intended)... Some who did move to the US and start teaching 35 years ago (or 29 in some cases) already had a good couple of decades experience in the trade and indeed continued to work wood for a living, with teaching being more of a supplement. If they also happen to make kit for certain markets within the trade, I'd suspect they're at least worth a look... although I'm personally more interested in those who insist nothing fundamental has really changed in a good hundred or so years, and who show various different ways of doing things.

 

[MarkDennehy]

'm sure he's a very creditable mortise-holer..... still doesn't mean he's any good as either a teacher or even a general learning resource

This. "Those who can, do, those who can't, teach" is the wrongest wrong thing in the history of pithy sayings. The skillset you need to do a thing and the skillset you need to teach other people to do that thing are wildly different. And if you disagree, take a peek at the Olympics. I can walk down the firing line in (say) the 50m prone rifle match and the top 100 shooters will all have the same skill level to within a fraction of a percent at most. But ten years from now, maybe one of them will be a successful high-level coach, because being good at the thing doesn't make you good as a teacher (which is another reason why you don't see a sprinter's coach beating them in every race ).

 

[D_W]

OK, to be clear. I said that someone needed to have a few decades of actual "supporting-yourself-bona-fide-work" under their belts. That doesn't mean that they need to be 65, but I'm sure Tage Frid provided fine instruction at 65.

Also, as to what matters in terms of method? Well, if you don't care what you're doing, or you're just enjoying yourself regardless, I guess it doesn't really matter.

If you're intending to do a lot of hand work, and you want to do it in a way that's satisfying and efficient, then the quality of the content is more important than the quality of the instructor's teaching ability. Learning is a two-node process, but a lot of hobbyists want it to be one node. The two nodes are:
* your source of information (be it an instructor, a demonstration, a video, etc)
* your personal effort in absorbing, observing, understanding, retaining, discerning, etc.

We have long since passed the point where people care more about the delivery man's hair than the message, and that's too bad.

I agree about the naming rights, though. most of the methods attached to a name on the internet are just hogwash - retreads of something others have done long before. I doubt sellers thinks his sharpening method should be named for him, and the old japanese chisels that I've gotten in the past that have had rounded bevels (some do)....I'd imagine those guys wouldn't know how to write sellers' name in kanji, or realize that they should be crediting him for something they did and he had not yet.

If you like to look at the messenger more, then I don't think we'll agree. And that's OK. At this point in my unstoried amateur career, I'd still much rather study old objects and silent videos of professionals than listen to most of the new instruction or watch any of Paul Sellers' videos on youtube.

Eventually you'll get past lessons with your drum instructor helping you, and you'll benefit more from watching and listening to mike mangini, et al. that's not really a good comparison, anyway. Much more of music is universal technique (though there are savants who succeed ignoring some of the supposed rules), and while a lot of woodworking is technique, iteration and thought is at least as important. Perhaps more. If you pick up a set of drum sticks and put your own set together with no instruction, you might get some habits that will be hard to fix. If you pick up woodworking tools, find an object to make and do it 50 times, you'll probably find out that you settle into correct technique out of laziness (or economy if that sounds nicer).

I don't know anything about the Mr. Ford mentioned here, and don't even agree with stabbing a chisel perpendicularly across wood when you can ride the bevel, but I'd rather watch a pro work than hear a guru say that there's only one way (R) and all others are wrong.

 

[Tasky]

OK, to be clear. I said that someone needed to have a few decades of actual "supporting-yourself-bona-fide-work" under their belts. That doesn't mean that they need to be 65, but I'm sure Tage Frid provided fine instruction at 65.

It does mean they need to be at least over 45 though. Basic maths.
In fact, these days, with working regulations and stuff, probably well past 50...

Also, as to what matters in terms of method? Well, if you don't care what you're doing, or you're just enjoying yourself regardless, I guess it doesn't really matter.

If it works for you, then surely it's fine?
I know what eminent teachers would all say is the 'correct' way to do a great many things in life, but my physical dimensions and limitations mean I have to do some of them differently... and in some cases I'll beat most people at it, teachers included.

If you're intending to do a lot of hand work, and you want to do it in a way that's satisfying and efficient, then the quality of the content is more important than the quality of the instructor's teaching ability.

Disagree 100%.
I could introduce you to a man with many decades of proven martial arts ability and teaching. He really (and I do mean *really*) knows his stuff and is one of the most highly respected teachers and authors worldwide across three very different martial systems. What he teaches has a good 3,000 combined years of proven 'quality'... and to top it off, he's highly quotable... but his teaching is not the best method for everyone, as he is 'stuck in the old ways' and favours certain styles of teaching.
Indeed, he taught me to understand in just eight minutes what 15 years of study with other teachers could not. But while he could spend four hours covering a technique and you'd probably understand the theory of it completely, you might still be unable to actually replicate it, despite it being proven right there in front of your eyes over and over and over. You'd certainly come away with one hell of a history lesson and be able to rival Stephen Hawking on understanding the physics behind the techniques... but you'd be damned if you could figure out how to make your own body turn all that theory into what you've been shown is a very real technique and that translation of mental theory into practical feel is the gap a good teacher will bridge.

By contrast one of his most senior students and now a master in his own right, as well as having his own proven history from other systems, I found to be a far better practical teacher. He understands enough different methods of teaching that it may only take a slight rephrasing of something for it to all suddenly click in a student's head.

The first guy is an absolute master in his chosen art(s). The second is a true teacher.
The first one could tell you all about the content, including translating Old and Middle English historical texts into modern terms, which is as 'quality' as you get... but the second is still better at helping you develop the right feel for properly controlling a 3' blade.

So too, I've known good and bad driving and riding instructors. You can tell a student all about how a car or motorcycle works, even down to the minutiae of countersteering or brake feathering, but unless you teach them what to feel for and how to feel it, they're gonna be rubbish motorists.

And so too can you watch every video by every woodworker on YouTube. You could even go watch the eminently professional Mister Ford working away and planing every tree on the planet... but unless he teaches you how to feel for when that plane binds, or catches a knot or needs a slight change of angle, you won't be able to do what he does and the whole thing is useless.

* your source of information (be it an instructor, a demonstration, a video, etc)
* your personal effort in absorbing, observing, understanding, retaining, discerning, etc.

The latter aspects should be ongoing, but will be limited by things like budget and time. The former can only be as good as their ability to deliver effectively.

We have long since passed the point where people care more about the delivery man's hair than the message, and that's too bad.

Not in the slightest. A number of things are conducive to being a good teacher... or messenger, salesman, supervisor, or whatever. One of those is presentation. The message you deliver must be done in a fashion which will be well received.
You're not going to instil much confidence in your message, if it's delivered by someone who looks like a clueless hobo, or is peppered by adverts for their own brand of expensive tools. Same as if you just stand-there-mono-ton-ous-ly-reading-the-words-off-the-obvious-cue-card or leaving....... long..... gaps in....... your..... Captain...... Kirk..... speech.....

Same for writing a manual or set of instructions - I think most people here would just switch off and disregard it if it looked like it was written by a teenager texting on their phone, yes?
I'm sure there's some Lefty Liberal Guardian readership wibble about not judging people, but the fact is the human mind is prejudiced. A teacher has to break past that prejudice and assert their authority on the matter and I'm sorry, but it just doesn't happen if you look like a bag of pineapples (or grapes) dragged backwards through a hedge, or you have a set of shining $$ $$ where your eyes should be.

I doubt sellers thinks his sharpening method should be named for him, and the old japanese chisels that I've gotten in the past that have had rounded bevels (some do)....I'd imagine those guys wouldn't know how to write sellers' name in kanji, or realize that they should be crediting him for something they did and he had not yet.

That's one thing I do like about Sellers - He presents most of 'his' methods as things he was taught by those before him, typically citing his teachers and apprenticing mentors, rather than taking ownership of them. Even the few things he does claim as methods or approaches he himself came up with, he delivers those more as "just the way I do it"... almost as both an invitation to try other methods and as a disclaimer that these are not long-used historical approaches like half of what he focusses on.

If you like to look at the messenger more, then I don't think we'll agree.

I generally find one has to consider the source itself as much as the material, otherwise you fall into a great many traps. A quick wander through Victorian archaeology shows that.

Eventually you'll get past lessons with your drum instructor helping you, and you'll benefit more from watching and listening to mike mangini, et al. that's not really a good comparison, anyway.

I already did, mainly because he taught me to teach myself, for the most part. It was this that led to me developing my own playing signature, land well-paying work with bands and residencies at various studios, and progress far further far faster as a "Mature Student" than most of the young and gifted ones he had.
I'm taking the same approach to woodworking - Learn how others do it, then use that to find what works best for me. The first step is learning what does work, regardless of what people think is the correct way, which is what I assume the OP was getting at when they started this thread?

Much more of music is universal technique (though there are savants who succeed ignoring some of the supposed rules), and while a lot of woodworking is technique, iteration and thought is at least as important.

See, that^ is the exact opposite of how I was taught, actually...
Yes, there are certain basic starting standards, rudiments, counts, fills and things which your teacher will take you through. There are also things like Guildhall and Rockschool gradings, examination set pieces and a myriad of different technical rules to playing.... But there then comes a time when you break all those rules, save the one Unbreakable Rule - It must sound good.

I actually skipped most of the rules and regulated stuff. While I could have done that if I wanted (and we did mess around with a few set pieces as examples), I wanted to play drums - So I was told to bring in three of my favourite songs and I was taught how to play them. But rather than learning to just read the musical notation and apply the 'correct' technique, I was taught to listen... and then learn from hearing.
Most American drummers are vastly superior, in technical terms. Their techniques are flawless, their accuracy is unparalleled and their timing is spot on...... but that's the limitation of almost every classically trained musician. There's no room for feel, for passion, for art. This is why so many utterly accomplished players can't manage something so simple as Country - Every note they hit is perfect, but music is the space between the notes and they leave no space.
All my favourite drummers tend toward playing comparatively simple things, but in ways that create a feel and enhance the music - Ringo Starr is a master at this, because he played backwards, against the rules and in doing so played to the feel rather than to rule. Something so simple as playing a hi-hat 'wrong' turned a pretty average song into a great song.
The aforementioned Joey Kramer of Aerosmith is another great example, with his single-stroke only patterns. Even (and in particular) the older greats like Baby Dodds, Tubby Hall and Zutty Singleton - Such simple, open playing and totally against any rules. Back in those days nobody ranted about what was correct technique because nobody played correct techniques... they played however worked best for the music.

If you pick up a set of drum sticks and put your own set together with no instruction, you might get some habits that will be hard to fix. If you pick up woodworking tools, find an object to make and do it 50 times, you'll probably find out that you settle into correct technique out of laziness (or economy if that sounds nicer).

Both, and neither, generally.
many drummers have a tendency to tense up during fills and fast sequences, while the opposite is required. Same for martial artists and motorcyclists. I assume tensing up is bad for sawing and planing too, no?

I'd rather watch a pro work than hear a guru say that there's only one way (R) and all others are wrong.

Then I'd question which 'gurus' you're hearing and suggest you tell them to take a hike...
I'd then suggest that watching pros work will have little meaning unless you already understand what they're thinking in their heads and feeling in their hands... in which case, why would you need to watch them instead of getting on with what you're here to do?

 

[Jacob]

....
I don't know anything about the Mr. Ford mentioned here, and don't even agree with stabbing a chisel perpendicularly across wood when you can ride the bevel, but I'd rather watch a pro work than hear a guru say that there's only one way (R) and all others are wrong.

Fordy was my woodwork teacher in 1982.
His perpendicular method is counter-intuitive I would agree, but actually is very efficient. It avoids "riding the bevel" (a new one for me!) which means you can mortice without clamping or holding down. This alone speeds up the process quite a lot and avoids clamp/vice marks on the work piece, which you are very likely to get if you whack away with a BFO mallet!
The fact that Krenov, Krausz, Tage Frid, Haywood, Sellers, Elvis Presley, J Christ, Ghengis Khan, Donald Duck, Woodbrains, do not know this method, is not surprising, not interesting, and shouldn't worry anyone!

 

[D_W]

It does mean they need to be at least over 45 though. Basic maths.
In fact, these days, with working regulations and stuff, probably well past 50...

That's correct. Hopefully, we all have a lot of useful years after 45 or 50.

Disagree 100%.
....

Put Mr. Ford aside for now. At some point, you will be cutting mortises or carving, etc, and doing it competently. Not karate, not drumming, etc, just woodworking where it's a lot easier to demand a result and figure out how to come up with it (as opposed to music where bad habits can be really limiting and difficult to experiment your way out of).

When you get to the point that you're doing something competently, it's pretty hard not to learn from someone else who is doing something more quickly and more neatly. You don't need another teacher or guru at that point to tell you a fifth method to do something you can already do, you need to examine what someone competent is doing and analyze it.

The latter aspects should be ongoing, but will be limited by things like budget and time. The former can only be as good as their ability to deliver effectively.

If you don't have time to think about what you're doing and how to improve it, I can't see how you have enough time to do it at all. There is a very large difference between carrying around a bunch of trivial facts that you learned from someone and walking around with the knowledge that you gained from doing something a few dozen times. A solid way to get nowhere in woodworking is have limited time and go from one "teacher" to another. That leads to things like perfect looking dovetails and horrible overall designs. It's common.

A teacher has to break past that prejudice and assert their authority on the matter and I'm sorry, but it just doesn't happen if you look like a bag of pineapples (or grapes) dragged backwards through a hedge, or you have a set of shining $$ $$ where your eyes should be.

If you're that dependent on the teacher motivating you, then you're not going to get anywhere.

I doubt sellers thinks his sharpening method should be named for him, and the old japanese chisels that I've gotten in the past that have had rounded bevels (some do)....I'd imagine those guys wouldn't know how to write sellers' name in kanji, or realize that they should be crediting him for something they did and he had not yet.

That's one thing I do like about Sellers - He presents most of 'his' methods as things he was taught by those before him, typically citing his teachers and apprenticing mentors, rather than taking ownership of them. Even the few things he does claim as methods or approaches he himself came up with, he delivers those more as "just the way I do it"... almost as both an invitation to try other methods and as a disclaimer that these are not long-used historical approaches like half of what he focusses on.

If you like to look at the messenger more, then I don't think we'll agree.

I generally find one has to consider the source itself as much as the material, otherwise you fall into a great many traps. A quick wander through Victorian archaeology shows that.

. The first step is learning what does work, regardless of what people think is the correct way

You're making my point.

many drummers have a tendency to tense up during fills and fast sequences, while the opposite is required. Same for martial artists and motorcyclists. I assume tensing up is bad for sawing and planing too, no?

It's not similar. You won't tense up like that woodworking due to laziness and fatigue. If you play music long enough, you're eventually going to get comfortable and do things without tension because it's easier. If you do only hand woodworking and get truly physically fatigued, that will come sooner than later.

I'd then suggest that watching pros work will have little meaning unless you already understand what they're thinking in their heads and feeling in their hands... in which case, why would you need to watch them instead of getting on with what you're here to do?

Way overthinking this. You watch a pro. If they get better results than you, or results as good with less time and effort, you copy elements of what they're doing and see if you get the same results. You don't have to know what they're thinking - they're probably not thinking anything, because they've gotten to the point that the work is trivial for them.

I don't play drums, but I play guitar. Woodworking is different than guitaring. I can watch Shawn Lane play, but he plays so fast that I can't discern what he's doing. Even if I could, I couldn't play what he plays because his nervous system works much faster than mine. Woodworking is a lot easier to discern by watching.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I had to google Shawn Lane. I must admit I did agree with one of the comments under one of the YouTube clips -

"it takes a lot of dedication and practice to get this pointless...." :lol:

 

[D_W]

I had to google Shawn Lane. I must admit I did agree with one of the comments under one of the YouTube clips -

"it takes a lot of dedication and practice to get this pointless...." :lol:

Is that in regard to Shawn's playing sounding like a bunch of random noodles attached together? It does sound like that, but it's because he plays about twice as fast as we can discern.

If you cut his playing speed in half (as a guitarist, maybe not to the casual listener), you find his playing thoughtful. It's too fast to understand at full speed, though. Some people like that, but I find it fatiguing.

I gather that other advanced guitarists (not bedroom guitarists, but people like Paul Gilbert) slow down what he's doing and learn from it (actually, Paul said that). It's too much and too fast for a casual listener, though, the same as an average person buying furniture at Ikea has no clue about carved elements in high end furniture or sculpture.

The point of that, though, is that I don't need a guru who has never done any real guitar work telling me a better way to play a given phrase. It's more useful to see someone like Shawn Lane doing it, even if you have to slow it down.

 

[Tasky]

just woodworking where it's a lot easier to demand a result and figure out how to come up with it (as opposed to music where bad habits can be really limiting and difficult to experiment your way out of).

They're only bad habits if someone else is right and you're wrong...

When you get to the point that you're doing something competently, it's pretty hard not to learn from someone else who is doing something more quickly and more neatly. You don't need another teacher or guru at that point to tell you a fifth method to do something you can already do, you need to examine what someone competent is doing and analyze it.

Or just ask them what they're doing.
But again, sometimes there will be other factors that limit your options and it might be you could never physically manage what they're doing anyway, or don't have the decades in which to practice nothing but what they do... This is why I will never be able to play XYZ as well as a drummer who has specialised in nothing but XYZ. Same applies to everything else in life.

If you don't have time to think about what you're doing and how to improve it, I can't see how you have enough time to do it at all.

I said limited.
The other extreme of that is sitting around thinking about it all the time and never doing anything but analysing it for more ways to be more efficient. I'd even argue that analysing everything for efficiency is also going nowhere fast, if anywhere at all.

There is a very large difference between carrying around a bunch of trivial facts that you learned from someone and walking around with the knowledge that you gained from doing something a few dozen times.

And there's an even bigger difference between doing something a few dozen times and finding a way you yourself can do it very well, first time every time. Practice does not make perfect... perfect practice makes perfect.
Another drumming lesson for life, there - I never spent hours and hours and hours and hours playing the same technique over and over until it was right. 30 minutes a day, of focussed, careful, precise practice is all it takes.

A solid way to get nowhere in woodworking is have limited time and go from one "teacher" to another. That leads to things like perfect looking dovetails and horrible overall designs. It's common.

Even with time, I wouldn't especially advocate it, as you're again analysing everything too much instead of getting anything done.

If you're that dependent on the teacher motivating you, then you're not going to get anywhere.

If the teacher cannot even grab your interest enough to hold your attention and deliver the material with clarity, then neither are they.
If they don't even seem to know what they're talking about, why should I even bother listening?

You're making my point.

Which one, exactly?
Sorry, getting old and got a touch lost in the string of requotes...

It's not similar. You won't tense up like that woodworking due to laziness and fatigue.

Oh, I bet people do. I bet you that holding too tight is on a list of reasons why people don't handsaw straight, or something.

If you play music long enough, you're eventually going to get comfortable and do things without tension because it's easier.

Typically people introduce tensions without realising, which then results in the fatigue and discomfort. Not the other way around.

If you do only hand woodworking and get truly physically fatigued, that will come sooner than later.

If you undertake physical activities like that with tensions inherrent, you will create fatigue and make mistakes... but your body will be too fatigued to properly correct things and you'll make more mistakes.

you copy elements of what they're doing and see if you get the same results.

How can you see what they are only feeling in their hands, in order to copy it in the first place?

You don't have to know what they're thinking - they're probably not thinking anything, because they've gotten to the point that the work is trivial for them.

Just like driving a car, they will still be subconsciously thinking about it and reacting to the tactile feedback. If you don't know what it is they're feeling for, you won't EVER be able to react in the same way.... well, at least not without trying it dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens of times over and over..... See above regarding that.

As for the rest, it depends - How much faster are they? How much better are their results? Is it much less effort, or do they just make it look easy? Also not just what are they doing differently, but why?

I don't play drums, but I play guitar. Woodworking is different than guitaring. I can watch Shawn Lane play, but he plays so fast that I can't discern what he's doing.

I've known a good few drummers like that. A great many, even. Most are either just wanking their instrument for the sake of showing off, or have gotten SOOOOOOOO good that you need to be an übermaster yourself just to hear what they're accomplishing - Curse of many a Jazz musician.
There was one guy I watched playing at a clinic - Mark Mondesir, I think - where he was pulling out all these ridiculously complex multiple odd-count time signatures and triple-inverse syncopated flammed rudiments in a blistering solo, and one by one you could see all the other eminent 'name' drummers present switching off and looking around at each other as they got utterly lost in the brilliance of what this drummer was tattooing out, until finally he himself just stopped dead..... because he was playing such complex and fast things, that he'd got his own self lost!!

Now that's quite a sin for a professional musician, getting so badly lost to the point where you cannot play through to pick it up again and have to stop dead like a Grade 1 student... and to do it in front of your equally talented peers, at your own clinic where you are there to impart your wisdom to others - He must have died inside, just a little bit! :lol:

But what that guy was doing and what many highly skilled players often do is only good for one thing - A show-off solo.
I will NEVER be able to play like that... but I will never need to and it honestly sounded like cacophonous dung, no matter how much skill it took to accomplish. Unbreakable rule - It must sound good.
I may be a drummer, but I'm still a musician. I play music, not an instrument.
I may be using a chisel, but the finished piece is my end goal and getting there is where all the fun is supposed to be. However I choose to do it and whichever chisel I like to use best is surely my own choice? Otherwise I might as well just go for the fastest and most effortless method and type the settings into a CNC machine.

Woodworking is a lot easier to discern by watching.

*If* you know what to look, listen and feel for.

It does sound like that, but it's because he plays about twice as fast as we can discern.

Interesting interview with him on Richard Hallebeek, about how he developed his particular talents and style...

It's too fast to understand at full speed, though. Some people like that, but I find it fatiguing.

So again another who could not even be understood unless you were a master your own self... and has to be slowed down and interrogated in order to understand what's going on, because simply watching is not enough?

The point of that, though, is that I don't need a guru who has never done any real guitar work telling me a better way to play a given phrase. It's more useful to see someone like Shawn Lane doing it, even if you have to slow it down.

And yet someone who has done and still does real guitar work is allowed to tell you... particularly if they merely present what they do, for your consideration, and leave you to make your own mind up?
Who's to say what is REAL guitar work anyway, though? Am I a lesser guitarist because I've made a small living playing 30 different styles in a small pub, compared to someone who has made millions while restricting themselves to just one single style?

And regarding actual woodworking, we all know who out there does "REAL woodworking", as he so often likes to remind us...!!
Points for, points against.

 

[StraightOffTheArk]

Nothing to add, except that 'music is the space between the notes' is so true - even, of course, when the space is very small. A whistle player friend of mine said something to the effect of "We're all trying to get more in tune and more in time, but that's not where the music is." Very true indeed.

A nice cup of tea is called for, after reading all those posts!

Cheers,

Carl

 

[D_W]

And regarding actual woodworking, we all know who out there does "REAL woodworking", as he so often likes to remind us...!!
Points for, points against.

Praise Jacob and pass the whiskey! Except when it's time to ride the bevel - Mr. Ford can ride the lightning if he wants to...I'll ride the bevel.

(re: the tension, if you're working only by hand, eventually, you'll get tired enough that the tension will go away. It's too much effort and too painful to maintain it. Professional musicians like to talk to amateurs all the time about fixing tension problems, but most people who get to that level probably also lose the tension out of natural laziness and repetition. An amateur who practices a half hour at a time and who has no deadline to learn a piece probably never will get to that point. They'll just take a break when it hurts)

One other side comment - I notice that a lot of people don't like to build something multiple times. I don't know how you actually get better at much without the repetition to do certain things trivially. I don't care what a carver is feeling when he carves or pares something, i can figure that out with iteration. I do like to see the order that a professional will do things, and watch stuff such as how much material they're taking, how long their strokes are on an element, where they take what I consider to be risks and where they don't. That kind of stuff is important. Some things that are risks early on generally aren't once you have some repetition.

I build more planes than anything else, mostly because it feels good to and i can do it now without much thinking. That kind of thing is viewed negatively by a lot of folks - they want to change the mountain each time they climb, which is fine - I get it. But, goodness, do you get a lot better at something if you do it a few times - especially if it's something you like.

 

[D_W]

Who's to say what is REAL guitar work anyway, though? Am I a lesser guitarist because I've made a small living playing 30 different styles in a small pub, compared to someone who has made millions while restricting themselves to just one single style?

re: shawn lane - he's doing something different than appealing to the masses. He's playing for himself. I kind of like that, even if I have had enough of his playing in fairly short order. It takes all kinds.

Same goes for drummers - when guys go weird just to be weird - to show you that they can play 13/8 when you're playing nice sounding stuff in 4/4. That's for them.

If there's a drummer version of Darrell Scott, them I'm kind of into that. In practice, I always liked a drummer who didn't try to increase the pace of everything 50% when we were playing live.

I just don't think much in woodworking rises to that kind of level unless someone is talking about making original designs (that's a can of worms), but that rarely happens on these forums or in instruction. It's more about the length of a carving stroke or the direction a chisel is going into the wood when woodworking. You can figure out how tightly you want to grip the chisel handle yourself.

 

[Jacob]

And regarding actual woodworking, we all know who out there does "REAL woodworking", as he so often likes to remind us...!!
Points for, points against.

Praise Jacob and pass the whiskey! Except when it's time to ride the bevel - Mr. Ford can ride the lightning if he wants to...I'll ride the bevel.

(......

I don't think I've ever used the expression "REAL woodworking".
But I do admire the work of those anonymous millions who have produce the bulk of the wooden stuff around us, for thousands of years.
I am interested in how they did it, and how different their working methods are/were compared to our modern aspirational "artist/craftsmen" fiddling about inefficiently, doing fancy 'bespoke' one offs, with the aid of their magazines, youtube vids, and masses of gadgets. :lol:

 

[bugbear]

I don't think I've ever used the expression "REAL woodworking".

Wrong again.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

I don't think I've ever used the expression "REAL woodworking".

Wrong again.

BugBear

Go on then show us where.

 

[arnoldmason8]

Hi All With all this talk about drumming has any of you cut a mortice with a drum stick ? With all their fine technique I'm sure the Americans must be able to do it. I wonder how they sharpen them. No - lets not go there.

A Happy New Year to you all. Regards Arnold

 

[D_W]

Which Americans had fine technique? The gurus are mostly English or European.