Rabbeted dovetail with hand tools

[Fromey]

I quite like the look of this joint;

I'd like to incorporate it into a tool tote build;

However, I'll need to make this joint with hand tools only. I expect I will have to mark the joint out, cut down the perpendicular wall to depth with a saw. Then nibble back from that wall with a chisel trying to maintain the correct angle. But I'm a bit skeptical that I can get a clean even angled plane for the joint. It doen't look like I could get a plane in there.

Any advice on how to do this by hand, other than having good chisel control and skill?

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

These joints, sliding dovetails and the like, were often done with a dovetail plane. Without one, some sort of hardwood block, planed to the desired angle can be used as a chisel paring block, to maintain both the angle and consistent tail thickness. Shouldn't be too hard to do.

Mike.

 

[Sheffield Tony]

I've never seen dovetail planes on ebay, or on the second hand online stores. Only as new builds by modern woodworkers. So, either there is a reason that surviving old ones are scarce, or joimts were not cut this way in the past, or these sorts of joint (including sliding dovetails) were rarely used at all. I suspect the latter ?

 

[tobytools]

I've never seen dovetail planes on ebay, or on the second hand online stores. Only as new builds by modern woodworkers. So, either there is a reason that surviving old ones are scarce, or joimts were not cut this way in the past, or these sorts of joint (including sliding dovetails) were rarely used at all. I suspect the latter ?

there is one on ebay now......
TT

 

[xy mosian]

Cut down both surfaces with a backsaw, use a guide block if you like. That way the problem becomes a cleaning up job.
xy

 

[Jacob]

Precise marking with gauge and knife. Remove most of waste with whatever you have. Pare down to the lines with sharp chisel - bearing in mind that only the outside edges marked by your lines will be visible and must be spot on. The rest can be well undercut - which will help to give a tight joint at the visible edges.
It's not a very good joint BTW

 

[deema]

Jacob's solution will provide I believe the most satisfaction when completed. However, if your looking for a quicker solution, it can be produced using a router and a dovetail bit.

The lighter wood is cut with the router resting on the end grain. Suitable clamping and a fence are required / router table. The darker wood cut us produced by resting the router on the side (long grain) of the board.

 

[Jacob]

Jacob's solution will provide I believe the most satisfaction when completed. However, if your looking for a quicker solution, it can be produced using a router and a dovetail bit.

The lighter wood is cut with the router resting on the end grain. Suitable clamping and a fence are required / router table. The darker wood cut us produced by resting the router on the side (long grain) of the board.

Quicker if you were doing a long run but for a one-off the amount of fiddling about and setting up would be very time consuming.

 

[Fromey]

Thanks everyone. I'm not sure I can saw the angled plane, but I like the idea of using a beveled block as a guide for pairing down. I'm not really after strength from the joint, just like the look of it.

The other challenge will be the transition from the side to the end at the curved top. I plan to make the side just a mm or two higher, assemble and the plane down and blend the two boards together at the joint with a spoke shave or rasp/file/sand paper.

Before I waste my nice maple wood, I'll trial it with some pine scrap.

 

[xy mosian]

As in the photograph, leave it proud, call it a feature.
xy

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Personally, I'd like to see a few more dowels in the joint. As Jacob suggests, it is not very strong. All the strength comes from the dowels, and 2 is a bit sparse. TBH I would not undercut the joint anywhere, it is not hard to get a good wood to wood contact with a chisel and paring block, and glue only sticks wood, not air! Glue up the joints with cramps, make sure everything is square and leave to cure. Then drill and insert dowels, the fluted variety. Take some care, as the joint is not strong until the dowels are in.

Mike.

 

[bugbear]

Apart from making the cutting more difficult (see above ) can anyone explain what benefit this
angled lap joint has over the normal square form?

The "dovetail" isn't captive, so it doesn't provide any locking at all. :?

BugBear

 

[woodbrains]

The "dovetail" isn't captive, so it doesn't provide any locking at all. :?

BugBear

Hello,

It does in one direction. Only marginally better than a butted rebate, but better.

Mike.

 

[bugbear]

The "dovetail" isn't captive, so it doesn't provide any locking at all. :?

BugBear

Hello,

It does in one direction. Only marginally better than a butted rebate, but better.

Mike.

I can't see(understand) that - could you draw an arrow on the picture?

A dovetail in a dovetail "hole" resists being pulled, but a "half pin" just moves to one side, and is pulled.

BugBear

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Looking at one corner in isolation, the joint could possible slide 'uphill' to evade the undercut. But it will be part of a box, so would have to pull the other 3 joints apart as well, for this to happen.

I'd do reiterate, it is only marginally better than a butted rebate. Probably 90 percent of the strength is provided by the dowels.

Mike.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Does this explain?

 

[bugbear]

Hello,

Does this explain?

Thank you, yes.

But I disgree. The sides are free (except near the bottom, as you say) to just move apart.
I suppose you could consider the whole side (including the bottom) to be a single,
ultra-wide dovetail, but it's tenuous.

BugBear

 

[woodbrains]

But I disgree. The sides are free (except near the bottom, as you say) to just move apart.
I suppose you could consider the whole side (including the bottom) to be a single,
ultra-wide dovetail, but it's tenuous.

BugBear

Hello,

Yes, the ends are free to move apart, but all 4 joints would have to fail (to a point) for this to happen. A bottom in a groove will help prevent this, though probably no more so than the same in a plain rebated box.

The dovetailed rebate is not a strong joint by itself, I have never contended otherwise, but practice shows that there is some advantage over just rebates alone. Of course a large box, such as a toolbox, will lessen the advantage. The dowels will be essential. I would use box joints of dovetails myself, but the OP likes the look of these. TBH common dovetails are probably no harder to do anyway. Sometimes seeking what looks like a simpler solution can end up causing more effort in the end. By the time a paring block has been accurately made, half a set of dovetails could have been cut!

Mike.

 

[Fromey]

Mike, you have a good point about the time/benefit equation. I've just made a 6-board chest using dowels instead of nails and I quite like the look. Thus, I intended to use a straight rebated joint with dowels for this tote. I happened upon the dovetailed rebate and thought it adds just a bit more interest to the design; but might be a step too far for someone of my current abilities/experience. I'll see how my practice goes before committing to this joint or not.

The tool tote itself will not be under much stress. I intend to make a slightly thinner version of the one pictured so that it can sit on my bench and collect the usual suspects. When I need to clear the bench, I'll just move the whole tote away in one fell swoop.

Even if I don't use this joint, I'm glad my post has resulted in some interesting discussion and, as always, appreciate everyone's help.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

If the end and side boards are contrasting colours, it can look quite nice, as per the sample photo. If all the same wood species, then it would be almost unnoticeable over a rebate, and the dowels would be equally useful to strengthen the joint in either case. Do it, though, as it is all good experience and the only way to improve skills, after all.

Mike.