Principles

[softtop]

Not wanting to bring this thread back in any way to the original question (!) but I bought a Worksharp and it's been fantastic, and (certainly for me) silly person proof.

Now I just need some decent planes and chisels...

 

[yetloh]

Am I alone in not wanting to be thought of as a "collector"? My starting point has always been "will I use it, even if not immediately?". If yes, there is no reason not to buy it, and I do (mostly). This gives me plenty of scope. I think the only tool I have not yet used is the compass plane I bought about 12 years ago, but I'm sure its day will come. If the new tool duplicates the purpose of one I already have, I sell the old one because I will only duplicate if the new is better than the exsting item. This has involved selling soem decent stuff like a dead flat pre WW1 low knob Stanley No 7 and LN 60 1/2 (never liked it) and skew block planes, both replaced by superior Veritas items. These sales are first rate propaganda in convincing she to whom new purchases must be justified.

Jim

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Am I alone in not wanting to be thought of as a "collector"?

Hi Jim

While there are, no doubt, some who recognise that their involvement in woodworking is entirely passive, and all they do is purchase tools as an interest - whether for their historical or aesthetic qualities - there are also those who acquire tools in what someone will perceive to be larger-than-needed quantities. I have no issue with either group. I clearly fit into the second group, and that is where the niggles begin.

The point is that what I have in my workshop should not be cause for criticism. I'm not referring to the rivalries and jealousies that are nearly always present among siblings (we are one large family, are we not?). However there is always someone with a need to put down another, and this is commonly (on the forums) manifested in a "user versus collector" position. Personally, I find it derogatory to be called a collector. Not because collecting is a low level activity (it is not), but because it is as if I can only be one or the other. In other words, if I "collect" tools then I am not an artist. That wounds my fragile ego.

If I were woodworking for a living, I would almost certainly try and keep my overheads as low as possible. That is how one maximises profit. I do this in my private practice - I only buy and use the (psychometric) tools which are essential to my needs. I am sure that the idea of unnecessary tools must appear wasteful to a pro in any profession. We do not own "toys". We don't play with them. We use them for a specific purpose, then put them away until needed once more. However my woodworking is just a hobby. I enjoy the creational side and I enoy the playing side.

Do not interpret the above to be my pointing an accusing at professional woodworkers, but rather I include any experienced woodworker. I will catch myself thinking about someone's description of what they did and what they did it with, "that tool is unnecessary - you could work around it this-or-that way". Then I have to pull myself up and remind myself that this is the way we all learn, and how some (myself included) just want to have fun with tools.

The bottom line is "collector" has come to have a negative connotation since it is associated with the wanna-be, and we all want to be thought of as skillful and competent. Let's just be mindful ... it's all relative - against some more advanced mark we are all wanna-bes.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[lanemaux]

Here is a big surprise but , I agree with everyone so far. I go about it just a tad differently from most. My daughter , A challenged individual , and I buy our tools for the purpose of bringing them back to life and beauty. Then my conscience makes me use them for the joy of shaping wood. Well that is a small fib. I like the wood part as well. I guess I am just conflicted. In any event , getting the tools back to working trim is a very major part of it . My point is that just the joy of tool resurrection can be joy enough as well.

 

[jimi43]

In other words, if I "collect" tools then I am not an artist.

If you personally ain't an artist then neither was Turner!

I see you as an archivist of tools. And a blinkin' good one too!

Your collection, blog and website are a huge resourse for others such as myself. =D>

Now....hand over the keys to the Porche!!!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :wink:

Jim

 

[Archimedes]

All,

This is a very interesting discussion to have developed. Despite my original question being prosaic on the surface, it cuts deeply and seriously across our craft if we choose to pursue it.

There are a range of activities that we, as a group, engage in. All of them are valuable because all of them can contribute to the body of knowledge that the group possesses. Although we have a spectrum of activities there appear to be three broad group views which have emerged that have very indistinct borderlines between them:

1. Pure makers: This group is interested in tools only for the utility they provide. The sole focus is the finished workpiece that the tool can contribute to.
2. Makers and tool aesthetes: This group is interested in making finished pieces primarily but also has an appreciation of the aesthetics and function of the tools that aid in the experience of making
3. Tool archivists and makers: This group are interested in the tools ahead of the finished pieces. They are interested in the history of tools as well as function and aesthetics (they may seek out Norris planes for example not only for their utility but also for their aesthetic qualities and for their historical value). This group may experiment with tools and seek out unusual examples (such as a compass plane which amy be used only rarely). While this group does value finished pieces, in terms of time and effort they spend more of it on the tools than working on projects.

The members of all three groups need to have an appreciation of the function of tools and the utility they provide. All contribute either through sharing knowledge of utility in use or through comparison with other similar tools or through their encyclopaedic knowledge of the later 1912 Throckmorton-Sparrowstrangler Philibuster skew augur (humbly; my own specialty: it was not a success). But, the key point, we all contribute.

We are all here because we want to be and we all learn from each other. My principles are only for me just as yours are for you (and I do like many of the replies that have appeared!). My principles apply because, for me, rule No1 (the finished pieces are the measure of success at all times) applies and because I have very little money to devote to my craft. So, I have to maximise the use I get from any tool I buy.

Now then: What I really want to know is what is the group's view on the best clamps for small box projects? I have all the parts of my walnut box made but, as you will no doubt have noticed from my list of woodworking tools not only can I not sharpen anything, I have no clamps whatsoever!

I have contemplated making a Spanish windlass for when I put the box sides together but you may advise otherwise.

Thanks for the input gents. It is all grist to the mill (shavings to the plane?)

Kind regards to all,

Arch'

 

[jimi43]

...........the later 1912 Throckmorton-Sparrowstrangler Philibuster skew augur.....

Damn! Another cabinet! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Jim

Oh...and Bessey.

 

[Archimedes]

Cheers Jim. :mrgreen:

I'll take a look.

Arch'

 

[Archimedes]

All

Someone asked me for a image of my chair. So, hopefully this will work.

It should be obvious this was just as they were glued up... :wink:

 

[yetloh]

Interesting responses with which I broadly agreee. My aversion to being thought a collector is a purely personal thing. My starting point is that tools are intended to be used and most tool (all?) makers like to think they will be used rather than kept in glass cabinets, so I dispose of those I no longer need so that someone else may use them. It can be argued that collectors push up the prices of tools in limited supply for those who want to buy them to use. On the other hand, I feel sure that were it not for the collectors, it is unlikely that many of those who make fabulous tools in tiny numbers would not remain in business. On this basis, I think all of us who love top quality tools must be grateful for the existence of collectors (passive or otherwise), but I don't want to be one because so much of the pleasure to be gained from owning top quality tools is derived from actually using them, even if that means they acquire the patina of use rather than remaining pristine.

Jim

 

[Richard T]

I say Archi,

I have been "collecting" Record sash clamps of the variety pictured in use on your chair (good looking chair(s) by the way) over years from boot sale visits. I now have quite a few - not enough, of course, as no one can ever have that elusive amount.
They seem to me to be the most versatile from light clamping through to heavyish. For heavy I use Carvers.

A word of warning, although I'm sure you realise, there are a lot of next to useless cheap clamps floating about, usually of the squeezy handle, Bessey knock - off variety. Best to stick to known names IMO, and if from boot sales, all the better.

 

[Archimedes]

Cheers Richard

Bessey seem the favourite at the moment. I'm not sure I will need Carvers just yet but thanks for the advice. Thanks for the kind comment on the chairs - I will try to post better pictures!

Cheers
Arch'

 

[Tony Spear]

One disadvantage of being old is you can't say "It will last me a lifetime" 8)

Even that isn't strictly true.

When my mate looked at the custom made chassis of my Land Rover special, he said "b****y 'ell mate that'll see both of us out" to which I instinctively replied "I e****g well hope so, 'cos I'm taking it with me when I go!"

:mrgreen:

 

[AndyT]

Now then: What I really want to know is what is the group's view on the best clamps for small box projects? I have all the parts of my walnut box made but, as you will no doubt have noticed from my list of woodworking tools not only can I not sharpen anything, I have no clamps whatsoever!

One idea I've used successfully is also one of the cheapest - buy some lengths of steel studding. For a little box, 8mm would be fine, or even 6mm. Collect together some suitable scraps of stout wood, clamp them in pairs (in the vice! - you do have a vice?) and drill clearance holes towards the ends. Use them in pairs with the wood spanning the box, drawn together with nuts and washers on the studding. This way you can make up a set of lightweight clamps which will exacrly suit your project and you can clamp in two or three directions at once.
(I suppose there is a compromise really - leave the studding long and awkward for maximum re-usability or cut it close to what you need this time so nothing gets in the way.)

Studding can be got from electrical wholesalers, Screwfix, Toolstation etc.

I did use this method once on a much bigger piece - a dresser top - and it was successful there where I could not have afforded 6' sash clamps.

 

[Pekka Huhta]

Tool collecting is a source for endless amusement at the forum, but I think that one very important thing got lost when we slipped too fast to the tool collection aspect:

1. Finished pieces are the measure of success at all times.

Although the principles were otherwise wery well thought out, I would not agree about this at all.

Many times the process is more beautiful than the product. In many cases the learning process, or just simply a process of doing woodwork. Seemingly useless whittling can be almost meditative even though you are not producing anything very useful or pretty.

Nowdays I am quite happy about the pieces I make, but I think that my woodworking history would have been quite sorry and short had I just looked about the results and nothing else. But every time I have built something that went wrong I have been thinking that what I gained was not a pretty piece but a lot of learning.

And many times it's very nice not to try to teach something or build a perfect workpiece, but just to live for the moment and let the work, process, flow. In some cases you get nothing useful, but I have also built the most beautiful pieces that way.

No matter if I get nothing useful or the most beautiful piece, I tend to enjoy the process just as much.

Pekka

 

[heimlaga]

Well..... that minimalist way of thinkig would prevent me from being creative. That would lock me to the drawing and to certain precut pieces of wood.
To me the joy of woodworking is that i can go th the forest, fell a tree, get the logs sawn or hew them to exactly the size I want and dry them to my prefered moisture content and make anything I want out of it. I am not tied to any stereotypes nor to preparations made by others. The only limits are the size of a tree and my skills or lack thereof.....and of cause lack of time.


There are some basical tools that are always needed whaterver you do. Often they just stay on the shelf but as woodworking is a kind of three-dimensional problem solving I prefere to have a set of general tools for solving problems. They need not look fancy nor cost much but their technical quality has to be very high.

If I do not have a good axe and a knife I fell like missing my right hand. If I do not have a scrub plane and a long plane for dressing rough stock to my specifications I feel like a chained prisoner. A crosscut and a rip handsaw are just as important.

Just my oppinions.

 

[Archimedes]

Hello Pekka

First can I say what a great website you have and what beautiful wooden boat models you create!

I can only agree wholeheartedly with your point. Principle 1 did not receive as much attention. You have very eloquently brought our attention to a core underlying principle of what we do in your post. =D> =D> =D> But I would go even further; Even the collecting, handling, cataloguing of tools and their uses can be meditative and that process has value too.

You have touched on something that is at the core of Robert Pirsig's discourse in 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance' which explores very thoroughly the underlying forms in what we do. You are, I believe, utterly right: when we focus on what we are doing whether whittling a stick or crafting the most intricate inlay, there is something to be learned. The process has as much value as the finished piece (or part finished piece). There is much beauty and value to be had from learning from the process.

Right now I am cutting endless comb joints by hand every night to learn this little part of the craft. None of them are 'right' yet but gradually they are improving (in my eyes) and I am simply enjoying the moments I spend doing the work as much as seeing the row of practice joints extend along the kitchen window sill each day.

Perhaps my own Principle 1 should be: 'Learning from creating a piece is the measure of success'

What do you think Pekka? What does everyone think?

Kind regards to all
Arch'
P.S. I can't tell you just how much I am enjoying being part of this community (and this thread in particular). Thanks for your generosity in sharing your thoughts, your work and your experience. I really appreciate it.

 

[Archimedes]

AndyT - thanks. A great suggestion.

Much appreciated.