Pope's Visit - cost

[big soft moose]

I used to be an aetheist until I realised that Richard Dawkins is god. I don't give two hoots about a Papal visit, nor who pays for it, but I do care that his words condem generations of Africans to more misery through Aids and over-large families.

Mike

Aetheist? Well, my daughter has labelled me an anti-theist, which I rather like. Isn't this thread running close to the "no religion, no politics" rule?

it is now

and i broadly agree with you about the HIV issue - though papal teachings arent entiely to blame for that problem, it is also a societal thing with lack of womens rights with the men choosing not to where condoms or be monogamous.

technically speaking, it isnt the papal no contraception edict that is the problem, because if they followed the papal line entirely they would also not have sex before or outside of marriage, and would be faithful and monogamous - the problem comes from the hypocrisy of insisting that you must folow the papal teaching on no condoms, but then also breaking them by having casual sex or visiting prostitutes.

 

[big soft moose]

as a matter of interest the popes personal security is handled by the swiss guard (traditionally swiss "mercenaries" in the pay of the vatican) who are very tasty .

Didn't realise you were into that sort of dressing up Moose

when you talk about smocks I assumed that you were into turning smocks...

Miles

muppet i meant tasty as in "the SAS are well tasty i wouldnt not mess with those fellas" - not as in "eh shes a bit tasty i wouldnt mind some of that."

personally i think the swiss guards dress uniform makes them look like a court jester, but i wouldnt be inclined to say so to their face

 

[MikeG.]

The Selfish Gene and The Blind Watchmaker were good, with a scientific background appropriate to their time and place. They could do with updating but still make coherent sense today.

The truly astounding book for me was River Out of Eden. The first Dawkins I read, it presented the impenetrably difficult in the most clear-cut and seemingly obvious (in hindsight) ways. Sheer brilliance. I also thoroughly enjoyed Climbing Mount Improbable. I have 3 versions of the Selfish Gene, which gets updated fairly regularly. The clarity of thought is a joy. I do agree that Devil's Chaplain and the God Delusion are nothing much more than polemicals.....but I am glad they were written........which I just can't say about Unweaving the Rainbow........indulgent directionless waffle, I thought.

I also thoroughly enjoy the writing of Steve Jones. Read "Almost like a Whale" for a clear sighted exploration of evolution and associated subjects.

-

Now, how did we get onto book reviews from discussing the security arrangements for the pope's visit?

Mike

 

[Dibs-h]

If your lot were protesting for the leader of a muslim state to pay his own way we would be having rioting in the streets no doubt

I think you'd find that most wouldn't actually give a dung! Almost all are despotic little pineapples supported\encouraged by those who want access to the natural resources etc.

However if one actually doesn't know any muslims other than by the accounts\headlines in the Daily Mail or similar then such an opinion is to be expected.

 

[Digit]

Dibs, have you by any chance watched 'Muslim Driving School' on TV.
If you haven't, this week's edition occurred at Ramadan, an elderly lady from Pakistan was praying at the start of the day, tears streamed down her face as she prayed for killings to stop, for the hungry, for the poor and for the sick! A lovely lady!
Most of us do not meet Muslims due to the fact that immigrants here, and abroad, tend to live amongst their own, quite naturally, but the downside of course is that we only hear about the Sh*ts!

Roy.

 

[big soft moose]

Most of us do not meet Muslims due to the fact that immigrants here, and abroad, tend to live amongst their own, quite naturally, but the downside of course is that we only hear about the Sh*ts!

Roy.

When i was in milton keynes i worked a lot with the muslim community and was a regular visitor to the mosque (as the imam and assistants ran a youth programme that i used to work with a lot). I actually found them to be very easy to work with, not least because unlike some christians they dont feel the need to constantly try to convert you.

Its easy to picture all muslims as being an al queda recruit in waiting , but in fact this is way off beam - and perhaps before we condemn all because of the actions of a few we should reflect on the millions of people killed in the name of christianity over the years, not to mention all those people britain killed in the various empire countries simply because they were in the way.

 

[Dibs-h]

Dibs, have you by any chance watched 'Muslim Driving School' on TV.
If you haven't, this week's edition occurred at Ramadan, an elderly lady from Pakistan was praying at the start of the day, tears streamed down her face as she prayed for killings to stop, for the hungry, for the poor and for the sick! A lovely lady!
Most of us do not meet Muslims due to the fact that immigrants here, and abroad, tend to live amongst their own, quite naturally, but the downside of course is that we only hear about the Sh*ts!

Roy.

Roy

I haven't had the time unfortunately to watch much of any TV - between the 'shop\windows\etc. and being 4th in line after 2 kids and SWMBO and 1 TV - you can bet I loose.

SWMBO watched it and said it was dead funny (in parts no doubt). It's recorded on the V+ - so at some point will do.

I think stuff is changing slowly but I think it also depends on where you live in the country as well. In rural type places probably not - but in the cities (work, etc.) more and more folk are mixing, meeting, etc.

Not to mention interests - the younger generation (i.e. not the 1st gen) are into the same stuff - cars, sports, etc. so in a lot of places they probably do get to know each other and some make good friends.

Uni being one place - at my local sheesha ( :-$ ) place the students come in groups from all sorts of backgrounds\colours\religions (and you don't half hear some not so common accents) which is good to see.

Dibs

 

[Digit]

Parts of the programme are funny, like most driving school programmes! Let's face it, we love taking the p*ss out of learners! :lol:
One young woman, born here, referred to the 'traditional' female garb as a 'Full Ninja outfit!'

Roy.

 

[Dibs-h]

... 'Full Ninja outfit!' ...

Roy.

I've been referring to them as that for years - much to the embarrassment of any wearer nearby.

That's a very common term and it does raise a few giggles. :wink:

 

[Mike.C]

Dibs, have you by any chance watched 'Muslim Driving School' on TV.
If you haven't, this week's edition occurred at Ramadan, an elderly lady from Pakistan was praying at the start of the day, tears streamed down her face as she prayed for killings to stop, for the hungry, for the poor and for the sick! A lovely lady!
Most of us do not meet Muslims due to the fact that immigrants here, and abroad, tend to live amongst their own, quite naturally, but the downside of course is that we only hear about the Sh*ts!

Roy.

Back in the early 80's when I was young, free, and single :roll: I had a flat down in Portsmouth, and a couple of doors down a Muslim family owned the local papershop. When I went in there for my daily pack of Rothmans and newspaper, the guy and I who was about my age always had a chat and put the world to rights.
Anyway after breaking my leg I was laid up for a bit and couldn't get to the shop. Two days later there was a knock on the door and when I opened it I found the shop owner standing there. Apparently they were just checking to see if I was ok because they had not seen me about and did not know I had had an accident.. To cut a long story short that evening he knocked on the door again, but this time he had his mum's wheelchair with him and proceeded to wheel me back to the flat above the shop, into the chairlift and up the stairs to join him and his family for dinner. I was knocked for six, and even after I had the plaster off and for the next two years until I moved, his wife insisted that I eat with them when I got home from work each day. She said that single men do not look after themselves and eat too much junk food.

I will never forget their kindness and even though I now live in Scotland I am still in touch with them.
How many people die each year lonely and on their own and are not found for weeks, just because their neighbors do not care enough to check on them? Yet this Muslim family cared enough to checkup on a relative stranger.

As Roy said we only hear about the bad ones who are few and far between.

Cheers

Mike

 

[Digit]

There is so bad in the best of us,
and so much good in the worst of us,
that it ill becomes anyone of us to judge the rest of us.
My mum, a frum Jewess.

Roy.

 

[Dibs-h]

She said that single men do not look after themselves and eat too much junk food.

I could almost picture a sketch from Goodness Gracious me breaking out! :lol:

 

[Digit]

Remove the traditional clothing from both sides and it is sometime hard to distinguish a Yiddisher mama from a Muslim one, I can imagine my mother making precisely the same comments.
I can remember my mum giving up part of our rations to Italian POWs during WW2.

Roy.

 

[studders]

She said that single men do not look after themselves and eat too much junk food.

I could almost picture a sketch from Goodness Gracious me breaking out! :lol:

"I'm off for an English" :wink:

 

[Steve Maskery]

"I'm off for an English" :wink:

NO!, you'll be constipated for a week.

Ah, brilliant.
S

 

[big soft moose]

Remove the traditional clothing....

you can get into a lot of trouble trying that kind of thing

 

[Digit]

Good thing it's only politics and religion that are banned and not sexual innuendo! :lol:

Roy.

 

[jlawrence]

I personally think that many of the misconceptions are caused because everyone is so frightened of discussing religion.
It doesn't matter which religion you follow, which colour you are, which country you are/aren't from, everyone has misconceptions about what people believe (or indeed don't believe) simply because there is no discussion so no one knows any better.
I am more hopeful for our youngsters as they actually seem to be taught about different religions/cultures in school these days - which imo can only be a good thing.

Politics now there's something I really can't understand, I can sit and discuss it for hours (over a beer of course) and still be none the wiser as to what the various parties really stand for (that includes those here and in the US).

 

[Rich]

Well, I thought I did the right thing, after being admonished for discussing politics and religion in the "off topic" section, I joined a debating forum whereby I could debate to my hearts content, after such a long absence, I see nothing has changed.

Rich.

 

[Dibs-h]

She said that single men do not look after themselves and eat too much junk food.

I could almost picture a sketch from Goodness Gracious me breaking out! :lol:

"I'm off for an English" :wink:

And the blaan-dist ting on the menu!

I personally think that many of the misconceptions are caused because everyone is so frightened of discussing religion.
It doesn't matter which religion you follow, which colour you are, which country you are/aren't from, everyone has misconceptions about what people believe (or indeed don't believe) simply because there is no discussion so no one knows any better.
I am more hopeful for our youngsters as they actually seem to be taught about different religions/cultures in school these days - which imo can only be a good thing.

Your sort of in the right direction there - except it isn't always about discussing. In a lot of cases I would say ignorance (i.e. not knowing much if anything) about some group is usually a root cause.

Anywayz after our little detour - I'm not catholic, but as we've (the Grand We, as in thieving oiks in Westminister) invited him - it would would be very bad form to ask him (or the Vatican) to pay for his protection.

I do see the idiosyncrasy in that it's an odd sort of a state, but as long as he's not visiting often - what the hell. That is an odd sort of a phrase - hopefully you get what I mean and not the literal version. :wink:

Mind you these secularists - whilst they can believe what they want or don't want - bit of a bloody cheek doing the petition thing. Bit like inviting someone out for dinner and then ask them to pay for his\her food - get a smack in the mouth round these parts!