Options on a combination machine

[RogerS]

OK...the time has come to get that combination machine to replace the separates I sold before we moved (yes, I know separates are better etc etc but circumstances perforce the purchase of a combination machine).

Then we come to the options and I've kind of settled on ...

1) increasing the table area from the standard 850mm to 2000mm

2) tiltable power feed table

3) fine adjuster for the spindle fence

4) digital readout on the thicknesser and the spindle moulder

But that pushes the price up, naturally, and so I'm kind of wondering if I bin them. Or would I live to regret it ?

 

[custard]

I'm not sure what you mean by a tiltable power feed table?

I use a combi, but I've also used separates in the past.

If I was speccing a combi again I'd look for a digi read out on the cross cut stop, and spiral cutters on the planer block.

The majority of combis I've seen have planer fences that are a touch shorter than ideal and aren't supported in the vicinity of the cutter block, which means check carefully that the engineering is beefy enough to account for these deficiencies, or you'll be forever swimming in rivers of frustrating inaccuracy!

Personally I can get by without a digital read out on the spindle, something like the Oneway Gauge will do the job, but that's the view of a cabinet maker, a joiner making more use of the spindle moulder might think differently.

Digi read out on the thicknesser? Yes, I agree, essential as far as I'm concerned. But it must be accurate and repeatable to 0.1mm before you really see the benefit.

Good luck!

 

[RogerS]

Thanks, Custard.

The tillable table has the power feed mounted on it..so when you are using the saw, it's out of the way. That's the theory. I do like a power feed with a spindle. But heavy ?

Why spiral cutters ?

Agree on the fences.

Must look up the OneWay gauge....depends how much it costs, I guess.

Digital readout is supposed to be 0.1mm

It's a Hammer C3 31 if that helps

 

[custard]

The tillable table has the power feed mounted on it

Of course, I should have realised. #-o

Yes, I use one on a Felder combi. I've worked in workshops where the power feed had to be lifted into place and bolted onto the spindle moulder table, then removed afterwards, it was a giant faff. The Hammer/Felder tilting arrangement is well sorted, the reach is fully adequate and the rigidity is impressive. You have to wind it into a specific position before tilting it out of the way, but that's not an issue.

I don't have the spiral cutter block, but having seen it in operation I wish I did! You can feed the timber in either way without any tear out, and I've seen dramatically figured timbers passed through a Felder/Hammer spiral block with no tear out. It's a lot quieter than a traditional knife block, and it compacts the waste much more efficiently, which is really useful if like me you're going to the tip in person to empty out your dust extraction sacks. The only downside I've heard about the Felder/Hammer spiral block is some joiners say it's less efficient than knives when it comes to taking really deep thicknessing passes, but given that some of these guys take 1/4" of Oak off at a single pass I wouldn't be overly concerned about that!

If you're a solid timber furniture maker you'll be well satisfied with the C3 31, it certainly won't limit you in any way, I know some superb professional makers who have based their workshops around the C3 31 and produce Guild Mark quality stuff.

However, if you're making fitted stuff from sheet goods then personally I think a professional quality table/dimension saw is pretty much essential, and if you're a joinery workshop then you'd really need separates. Sure, you can make the odd MDF cabinet or window frame with a Hammer/Felder combi, but if the odd one becomes everyday production then you'll be fighting the inevitable inefficiencies of any combi. For a furniture maker however, who wants to utilise limited space, and is prepared to schedule their projects carefully, a quality combi like the Hammer C3 31 is ideal.

Good luck!

 

[beech1948]

I have a CF741 combi with a full size sliding table. Its big.

If you are using say 2.4m stuff then you need 2x2.4m+ the length of your table to fit it all in. Call it 5m.

If you want to saw down an 8x4 sheet then you need to consider if you need 2.4m to the saw side. Say 3m.

The planer thicknesser will fit into the footprint of the saw for length.

Mine sits in a 5mx4m space.

I don't have digital measures on any component but I do use the mechanical gauges Felder sells and they are spot on and allow me to return to a previous measurement quickly and precisely.

If you buy from Felder be it a Hammer or Felder then do consider buying the engineer set up. Its worth it for the accuracy and certainty.

Al

 

[Peter Sefton]

Hi Roger

As you know I like my Hammer/Felder machines, not had a combo but do have some ideas.

If possible go for the 2.1m sliding table or get your boards pre cut by your supplier, saves killing your back. I just swapped out my K3 winner with the comfort package after twelve years for a bigger Felder.

Tilting the power feed out of the way looks like a great idea, they are heavy. Just check the power feed can do both work against the bed or fence by spinning through 180 degrees.

I wouldn't bother with fine adjustment on the fence, amazing how accurate you can set them up by pivoting one end just a tap.

Digital readout on the thicknesses a must, wouldn't bother on the spindle. I have them on both.

The Silent Power block gives an excellent finish, better than a drum sander IMO

Most of the items could be bought later but the Spiral Block needs to be a factory spec.

A couple of videos for you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyHi5d5aAEw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0Mu85f7qQs

Cheers Peter

 

[RogerS]

Thanks to everyone for their input.

Having digested all the comments, the one thing that sticks out to my mind is that the way of working with a combi affects the relative benefit of some of these options. I think now that the fine-adjustment fence is essential on the spindle (as is the DRO). The fence is accurately located by two large pins. So if part way through some work, you need to do some more ripping then the fence has to be removed. These pins mean that when it is put back to carry on moulding, then your settings will be still there. Ditto the DRO on the spindle. You have to wind it down out of the way to rip, but after ripping, just wind it back up to the correct setting.

Of course, this will never happen to me as my planning will always be 100% that I won't need to do this. :-"

 

[custard]

the one thing that sticks out to my mind is that the way of working with a combi affects the relative benefit of some of these options. I think now that the fine-adjustment fence is essential on the spindle (as is the DRO). The fence is accurately located by two large pins. So if part way through some work, you need to do some more ripping then the fence has to be removed. These pins mean that when it is put back to carry on moulding, then your settings will be still there. Ditto the DRO on the spindle. You have to wind it down out of the way to rip, but after ripping, just wind it back up to the correct setting.

That's a very astute point.

I have the adjustable fence option on the Felder CF741 Combi (I think from memory it comes as standard) and you're right, you can indeed remove and subsequently replace the fence and yet retain accuracy to within 0.1mm.

I don't have the power raise and fall on the spindle shaft but I do have the "dial wheel" on the manual rise and fall handle, and that too genuinely works to the same 0.1mm accuracy as the digital set up and can also be zeroed. In practise I've found that larger tooling (such as tenoning set ups) often has to be removed in order to sink the cutter heads below the table surface, and at that point it all gets a bit much to remember every variable in order to return to previous settings.

Some workshops have machines with removable spindles (that's a standard feature on the CF741, I don't know about the C3), and they'll keep certain tooling on a dedicated spindle and then change the entire assembly for frequently used set ups. However, for the smaller workshops that are likely to buy combi machines in the first place, that's far too expensive given the sky-high cost of tooling.

I guess it all comes down to what you're actually making. For the bespoke or short run hardwood furniture that I make it's not that important to attempt to return precisely to previous settings, you just run a bit extra on certain components to give yourself a safety net. I imagine it's the practicalities of bespoke furniture making that also influences Peter Sefton's views. However, for say a joinery workshop, where certain mouldings would be in regular production, being able to replicate those profiles exactly might be an important consideration.

One final point building on Peter's comments, I use the three wheel Felder power feed, and the tiltable power feed support is certainly beefy enough to allow running that either against the spindle table or against the spindle fence.

Here's a photo of my machine set up for spindle work with the power feed, you can just see part of the tilting support poking out behind the fence.

 

[RogerS]

Many thanks for the photo. Wonder if it's the same on the Hammer ?

 

[custard]

Wonder if it's the same on the Hammer ?

I've got a feeling that Hammer now offer their own smaller and lighter power feed. But I've seen a few Hammer machines from a few years back that used the standard Felder power feeds, so I guess (only a guess) that the Hammer tilting unit was the same as the Felder version.

Here's a different shot of my set up that shows it all in more detail. The two Bristol levers on the tilting mechanism fold up (they fold down below the table so as not to offer any obstruction), the power feed is then tilted into place, and the two Bristol levers engage in the two notches you can see and it all gets locked down. Simple!

You can also see in this photo how the power feed needs to be wound back into a specific position so it won't interfere with the under table support as it pivots around. You can also see the spindle height wheel I mentioned, it's a fairly low cost option (much cheaper than a power raise and lower drive at any rate!), this is the one that incorporates a dial reading to 0.1mm that can be zeroed at any position. So if you want to save a few quid from the spec that might be an alternative worth considering.

Ask away if you've any more questions. Pity you're not closer (I'm on the South Coast) or you'd be welcome to pop round to the workshop and see it all in practise.