Old wooden planes - still worth it?

[AndyT]

Following the recent discussion about using wooden rebate planes, and Sparkymarky's nice Nurse model that he bought for £2, I was wondering what would be a fair price for this old round, and whether Jimi has found any like it at bootfairs, or lurking in the background in ebay mixed lots:

big picture here

It looks like a user - shame about the nail hole drilled in the end though.

What would you pay?

 

[toolsntat]

Mmmm, very interesting :wink:

How long is it, what name is on the front and the iron??

Andy

 

[AndyT]

It's 9 7/8 inches long and stamped with the name Nicholson.

 

[Pvt_Ryan]

Nice.. I got 2 for 99p each.

I like the wooden planes, I think they look nicer (if they have been cared for) than the metal ones

 

[GazPal]

I'd not worry unduly about holes unless they affect structure, or are worm holes. Both are often readily dealt with, so - price-wise - it basically boils down to how useful you'll find any given plane is going to be. It's great if you can pick them up for buttons, but - if considering the price of new ones - paying a few quid for an old plane that's in great condition is well worth the pennies paid. :wink:

 

[bugbear]

Following the recent discussion about using wooden rebate planes, and Sparkymarky's nice Nurse model that he bought for £2, I was wondering what would be a fair price for this old round, and whether Jimi has found any like it at bootfairs, or lurking in the background in ebay mixed lots:


It looks like a user - shame about the nail hole drilled in the end though.

What would you pay?

Old moulding style planes (including rebates, rounds, hollows and "proper" moulders) go for around 3-5 quid in one-off quantities, unless there's something very special about them.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

I posted the followingover there last year.
.............

Latest ebay purchase. £0.99p, plus p&p

Now sharpened, linseed oiled, sole planed flat.

Salmen 404. 2 1/4". 1944. Same age as me - must be good!
Didn't seem to have done much (another coincidence!) but may have spent part of it's life in a pond, to judge by the dried out appearance and the badly pitted (Tyzack hardly used) blade.
Flattening the face by hand is very tedious so I thought it was time to invent the Grimsdale Mk II honing guide, details of which I've posted here: http://www.woodworkuk.co.uk/forum/viewt ... 992#p47992

It works OK but however I try to improve my wooden planes' performance, they just aren't as good as metal planes. Which of course is why they have largely been abandoned and are available on ebay for 99p.

 

[GazPal]

For the sake of those unfamiliar with wooden hand planes.

Trying to do wooden hand planes justice, as with Bailey and infill (Norris, Spiers, etc.) style planes, they can take a little getting used to.

I was lucky in having access to a decent range of wooden planes during my apprenticeship and had a bit of a head start with them by having to make my first bench planes from Beech, which I used for a couple of years before wages permitted me to replace them with a few cast iron bodied ones by Record.

If problems are encountered with wooden planes they're often easily resolved and cost next to nothing for parts if replacements are needed. Pick out one that's obvious junk and use it as a donor from which fresh wedges and splices, etc. can be made. Quite a number of decent planes can be picked up very cheaply and found chomping at the bit for immediate use, while others will need a little or a lot of work done to them before they're capable of working as they should.

Always ask a seller if signs of woodworm are present and avoid such pieces like the plague if they're found to be riddled. That is unless you're prepared to treat for woodworm and nip the problem in the bud.

Blade flattening can be eased and instead of hitting a blade back for hours on end, simply aim to get the leading 1/4" behind the edge faired up and fall onto flattening the blade whenever it takes your fancy to do some work on it. This will tend to keep your enthusiasm alive instead of killing it by doing more work than absolutely necessary in order to get a hand plane running sweetly. All you really need is to flatten the area directly behind the edge and where the tip of the cap iron sits. The remainder of the back enters the equation as the blade shortens through use and consistant re-grinds. A little and often is better than a marathon session.

 

[AndyT]

Just to help out with this round that we were talking about, here's a picture of the end. It does seem to have been a bit battered in its long life:

big picture here

Does that reduce what you would pay for it?

 

[GazPal]

Blade condition, sole condition and true throughout it's length are major considerations if considered from a user and not collecting perspective. If the plane is bent throughout it's length I'd walk away from it unless prepared to carry out some fairly comprehensive repairs. End shakes from drying out tend not to effect it's use too badly and are normally easily dealt with.

I'd simply pay as little as possible if unable to inspect closely and negotiate with the seller if price seemed to high for the piece in question after inspecting it. Following the buying trends on Evil_Bay and it should help as a guide to how prices paid and condition of goods relate to one another.

A matched pair of hollow and rounds by Moseley could range between £3 and £20 depending on your luck on the day.

 

[Jacob]

Just to help out with this round that we were talking about, here's a picture of the end. It does seem to have been a bit battered in its long life:

http://www.supertool.com/forsale/f2.jpg

Does that reduce what you would pay for it?

Very nice hand cut lettering.

 

[lwilliams]

Just to help out with this round that we were talking about, here's a picture of the end. It does seem to have been a bit battered in its long life:

http://www.supertool.com/forsale/f2.jpg

Does that reduce what you would pay for it?

Andy,

Don't use that plane. It's by John Nicholson the son of Francis Nicholson who many believe is the first plane maker in America. It's quite collectible and pretty valuable.

 

[jimi43]

Interesting thread and what a find! That is how the cookie crumbles with these old woodies...you can get a real gem amongst some very common wares.

I have some left in the shed somewhere...I sold others at a bootfair the other day for a fiver each and believe I got a good price for them...the buyer was happy too.

The steel can be good for making other tools but I really hate to break them up as they are a part of our history and even as shop ornaments are really worth collecting.

I think I have stopped at infills though...that's enough slopes for me in one day.

Jim

 

[GazPal]

Fascinating stuff! It just goes to show how a little information can go a long way in revealing the origins behind old tools. I'd have chosen it for usability and condition without giving a thought to who'd made it and not worried over putting it through it's paces in the role for which it's intended.

Very likely a whopper of a mistake in this instance, due to the history behind this plane, but still an error on my part because I'm not a collector and wouldn't have appreciated the significance of such a find without being nudged or told more about it.

Is there any more information concerning the history behind the plane maker in question?

 

[GazPal]

I see a few in the U.S of A are following this thread;

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread. ... ost1555565

Although they not exactly known for tact, I just wish some would offer to educate by adding something constructive, rather than sit smugly on their fat behinds while passing snide remarks behind other's backs.

 

[AndyT]

Ok, I'll come clean. I have been teasing you all a bit with this post, but I think you'll agree it's an interesting area. Now, I never said that I owned this plane - and I don't. It is currently for sale though. It's Patrick Leach's 'tool of the month' on his November listing.

Andy (Toolsntat) spotted that it was early and interesting.
Lwilliams is spot on about Nicholson and the fact that it's valuable.

Indeed, it comes from a time which is very important to Americans, and that's what accounts for its value. It's from the early colonial period. When the colonists started to settle in the 'New World' they naturally took with them tools from their old countries. For quite a long time, the Sheffield toolmakers enjoyed a good export trade, and for a while continued to export blades that were fitted into locally made bodies.

But with Nicholson, we get into the first wholly American made tools, and they take on an almost spiritual significance, as expressions of new independence. They were the tools that built the houses, schools and chapels of the new country.

So their value is far beyond what any of us would pay for a usable plane - which has also been accurately assessed in the postings here. Patrick Leach, as many will know, has for some long time been in the forefront of the second-hand tool market. His famous 'blood and gore' guide to Stanley planes is responsible for making rare tools desirable and valuable. So I am sure he knows what someone will pay for this very rare and special plane.

If you want to see how much he's asking for it, pop over to http://www.supertool.com/forsale/Nov2010list.htm where you can read what he says about it and see some other pictures and other tools.

 

[GazPal]

Ok, I'll come clean. I have been teasing you all a bit with this post, but I think you'll agree it's an interesting area. Now, I never said that I owned this plane - and I don't. It is currently for sale though. It's Patrick Leach's 'tool of the month' on his November listing.

Andy (Toolsntat) spotted that it was early and interesting.
Lwilliams is spot on about Nicholson and the fact that it's valuable.

Indeed, it comes from a time which is very important to Americans, and that's what accounts for its value. It's from the early colonial period. When the colonists started to settle in the 'New World' they naturally took with them tools from their old countries. For quite a long time, the Sheffield toolmakers enjoyed a good export trade, and for a while continued to export blades that were fitted into locally made bodies.

But with Nicholson, we get into the first wholly American made tools, and they take on an almost spiritual significance, as expressions of new independence. They were the tools that built the houses, schools and chapels of the new country.

So their value is far beyond what any of us would pay for a usable plane - which has also been accurately assessed in the postings here. Patrick Leach, as many will know, has for some long time been in the forefront of the second-hand tool market. His famous 'blood and gore' guide to Stanley planes is responsible for making rare tools desirable and valuable. So I am sure he knows what someone will pay for this very rare and special plane.

If you want to see how much he's asking for it, pop over to http://www.supertool.com/forsale/Nov2010list.htm where you can read what he says about it and see some other pictures and other tools.

:lol: Nice one Andy :lol: Here I was thinking my camera skills definitely suck badly with the number of good photographs shown on this forum.

The embossed nature of the maker's stamp said it all about it being early, but I thought it was one you had a chance to buy, or had bought and were wondering if you'd paid too much. I'd gladly give £3-£5 for it, but think my budget would fall a tad short of his asking price of $4,585. Even if it were early English and found in the clutches of a dead druid near Stonehenge I'd not pay more than £5 for it. Well....... I might stretch to £6 at a push and on a good day. :wink:

Is he certain it wasn't made by Jimmy Nicholson from Whitehaven or Joe Nicholson from Aspatria in Cumberland? Those Nicholson boys certainly got about a bit.

From a user's standpoint I hate the way prices can be driven high by collectors, but from a collector's standpoint, my enthusiasm for the things I collect sometimes gets the better of me.

 

[bugbear]

From a user's standpoint I hate the way prices can be driven high by collectors, but from a collector's standpoint, my enthusiasm for the things I collect sometimes gets the better of me.

There really aren't too many tools which are desirable to both users and collectors. Certainly in this instance there are plenty of usable rounds that aren't made by Nicholson!

In the areas where usable tools of old are rare (and hence desirable to collectors), the good old designs have been remade. Many of the early LN models were simply a cheaper way to get super-rare Stanleys for bench use.

Further, the collectors have done a damn good job of preserving the history of tools, providing reference material that us 'umble users can learn from.

Many of the really useful tools were made in such huge numbers (and are now so universally spurned by the majority) that getting good cheap old tools remains fairly easy.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

Ok, I'll come clean. ....

Oh you teaser!
I was beginning to wonder when you showed the lettering - I would have "collected" this plane for that alone.
But it's a slope I'm trying to resist; I've got enough rammle already. Trouble is, you can't use the stuff, you have to look after it ("curate" it as they say) and once you start there is no end in sight!

 

[sdbranam]

John Whelan's book "The Wooden Plane, It History, Form, and Function" is a very nice reference, though it only has two brief mentions of Nicholson.

Leach's monthly email list is also very informative (and amusing!). He packs his descriptions with all kinds of little historical snippets. You can sign up for it at http://www.supertool.com/oldtools.htm. The list links to photos of the items as well. He's got thousands of subscribers, so he doesn't seem to mind if people are just curious.

Over here on this side of the pond, mere humans can find affordable wooden molders for $15-30 (not much in the 99p range, I'm afraid, even after currency conversion).

The lettering on the plane was done with a hand stamp, not carved. You can imagine he had to give that thing a pretty good whack to set it in the end grain of a hard dense wood (doesn't say which, but probably beech?).

Regarding using wooden planes, I have to say the wooden molding planes are enormous fun, very satisfying once you get them going. Wooden bench planes can be made to work just fine, but due to the different size, geometry, weight, and balance, it's almost like learning to plane all over again if you're used to metal planes. Each one requires relearning the handling skills a bit.

Here's a post where I gave some wooden planes a try: http://www.closegrain.com/2010/05/taking-adam-cherubinis-challenge.html.