Newbie Timber Sourcing Advice

[lazy_pete]

Hi,

As a complete beginner I've been waiting for an excuse to embark on some woodwork for years. Now I'm planning a replacement garage and will need to build some cupboards / shelves etc. and as I suspect many do, I'm going to start with a workbench, as saw horses and some planks are a bit of a pain.

I've worked out what I want to build, which requires some beams to glue up for the bench top and some basic leg / stretcher work with mortise / tenon joints. My problem is what to build it from. I had contemplated just using PSE 4x4's to keep it cheap in case I make a hash of any particular bit, but then thought it might be nice to make at least the top from hardwood.

As a complete beginner I'm unsure where to source seasoned hardwood for this purpose. Most things ive needed in the past have been solved with a trip to Jewsons / B&Q etc. Should I just visit the local hardwood sawmill (there's a Scottish network and one not too far away) or is there a cheaper / better way for the hobbyist?

Also, I don't have (or have access to) any workshop equipment like planers / thicknesses etc and was planning on picking up power tools as I go along. I thought it might be wise to get the hang of the basics with hand tools, of which I am collecting various elderly relatives, before buying expensive toys. Thus I'd be trueing beams etc by hand.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Cheers,

Pete

 

[Jacob]

Google Paul Sellers bench build. Stick to easily available softwood. There is no great advantage in hardwoods - small advantage yes, but as a beginner I wouldn't bother.
I never got around to improving my first bench (mainly redwood) as it's still going strong and will see me out I expect.

 

[Dangermouse]

I agree with Jacob on this one. For a first bench you couldn't do better than the seller's one and can be made with hand tools.
Here is the link to his youtube video's the build of the bench.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ru2ZiNs_Wek

If you really wanted a hardwood top then you could swop the pine for beech or similar. More hard wearing, but a bit more hard to do by hand. But saying that if you can buy PAR hardwood to size then it would be as easy.

 

[lazy_pete]

Thanks very much for the advice. I suspect this forum could be a very useful discovery!

Sellers makes it look somewhat easier than I suspect it is, but doable. I'll base my plans on that. Also sounds like using PAR softwood might be a wise choice to start with.

Any comments on sourcing hardwoods in general for future aspirations?

Cheers,

Pete

 

[Jacob]

...
Any comments on sourcing hardwoods in general for future aspirations?

Cheers,

Pete

Go to timber yards and talk to people. There is no alternative. They are all different and most of them want to be helpful so that you come back for more. There is no shame in being a beginner and there's no point in trying to hiding it.

 

[barkwindjammer]

Pete you are just over the water from one of the largest timber ports in Scotland !-google timber yards/sawmills-Grangemouth

 

[G S Haydon]

If it's for a bench Pete I can recommend Chris Schwarz book "Workbenches from design & theory to construction & use". I found it interesting and informative. There are two benches in the book, a French type and a version of the British style bench like Mr Sellers makes. Mr Sellers bench build is a good one as well. When are you planning to start the build?
+1 on softwood. PSE European Redwood Vths from a Builders merchant is a good material. Our local merchant has been keeping some really nicely prepared stuff recently (avoiding much of the work Mr Sellers had to do with his smoothing plane) although it can be a lottery...............

 

[lazy_pete]

That's great - thanks all. Didn't know Grangemouth was such a big port, despite driving crossing the Clacks bridge nearby a few times a week for nearly a year! I'll go and have a nosy at some point - everyone's gotta start somewhere.

Softwood sellers style it is (though will check out that book too - thanks). Need to go clamp shopping!

Thanks again.

Pete

 

[Halo Jones]

After years of swithering what kind of bench to build I've just started building a "Seller's"/English/British bench. I do have my own planer thicknesser so have used reclaimed construction timber but I reckon PAR timber would be easier! The only thing I am going to do differently is recess the vice so the inner jaw (plus hardwood strip) is coplaner with the apron and build out the front legs so they are the same. I also plan on making a few cut outs on the front apron so work pieces can be clamped to the table.

So far it has been really quick. I spent a day surfacing timber (not required if buying par), a day fine planing and gluing, and a few hours cutting to length. It has also been great doing so much handwork. Apart from initial dimensioning everything has been done by hand. Also means you can get an hour or two done in the morning before the kids wake up!

Only thing to look out for - I reckon 8 x 600 mm clamps would be pretty much essential for this project.

 

[lazy_pete]

That's encouraging - shopping for clamps at the moment! Put a pic up when you're done?

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

When I built my garage bench it had to deliver three requirements

1) I wanted a perfectly level and flat top ditto a square edge because I use them constantly as reference surfaces for all manner of tasks
2) it had to be capable if supported a meaty vice (12" wide and 15" pull out)
3) it had to be good value for money and be stable

In the end after drooling over sjobergs and lie nielsens etc, in the end I came back to the inevitable truth that decent quality ply, because of the laminations is really stable. So in the end I made the top from three sheets of 3/4" marine ply simply glued on to each other. The frame is a simple softwood leg and stretcher affair with half lap, glue and screws. The bench is against a block wall so the back is bolted to the wall. It's still dead level and works a treat. It doesn't move in the winter and the cost was somewhere in the £150 region ( not incl the vice)

Ply is a seriously stable material....when triple laminated, its bomb proof!

 

[dp341]

I'm just finishing a bench, it's the third one I've had.

1 - was a pine framed bench with an oiled mdf top and a front apron, bolted to a wall. It was pretty stable and flat but I made it too high and too wide with a puny vice. It was fine for storing stuff under but not so good for working on.

2 - I bought a beech bench, £300, bog standard design, similar seen all over the place. This was actually more useful, being a better height, but it was not strong enough. The only way I could stop it flexing when planing was to push the end up to a wall and plane into it. I tried adding extra wood to strengthen it but it didn't really help.

3 - I watched Paul Seller's videos and read the Chris Schwartz books, I experimented with a workmate and different things on top to get a feel for the height that might suit me. I've finally built something that I like, based more on the French style bench on Schwarz's book rather than the Seller's bench (as I didn't get on with the apron on my first bench).

It is all made with wood from B&Q - I know, not the cheapest place and you have to be picky about what you take but I had the time to start one Saturday afternoon and that's where's open. I found that the stuff they sell for framing doors was generally better than the rest, easier to find pieces free of twist. I made the frame from this glued three wide (which enabled me to cheat by forming mortise and tenon joints as I glued them up rather than cutting them).

The top is laminated strips of 89*34 CLS, they have loads of that so there's plenty to pick through to find good bits. I cut the clearest 1.5m length from each piece, removed the rounded corners from the top with a table saw (I could have planed it reasonably easily but it would have taken a lot longer) and glued them side to side in twos fettling where required with a plane to get a good fit. I made sure any bow was positioned so that the ends met and there was a slight gap in the middle, then when glued and clamped they straightened out. It was then quick to plane the outside edges of each pair and glue them all together. Once they were all glued I planed the top flat, the bottom's a right mess but this is a workbench not a work of art. The top's just over 80mm thick now.

It has a 9" Axminster QR vice, I bid for a few records on ebay couldn't wait long enough to get one (with P&P) that was significantly cheaper than the Axminster which I'd seen and liked.

Of these, although not quite finished, no.3 is definitely the best and is already a joy to use. The first one could have been OK if I'd done my research and built it the right size. No.2 was definitely a mistake, I suspect you have to pay upwards of 600 - 700 to buy a decent bench new and given that you can build easily for way under 200 that seems silly.

 

[Jacob]

Sounds good! Schwarz and Landis's books are interesting but not a lot of help for the novice IMHO as neither book shows a basic bench, as though they never existed.
I see them as books for bench enthusiasts not for woodworkers who just need a good bench like this one:

 

[dp341]

Sounds good! Schwarz and Landis's books are interesting but not a lot of help for the novice IMHO as neither book shows a basic bench, as though they never existed.
I see them as books for bench enthusiasts not for woodworkers who just need a good bench like this one:

Well, I've been woodworking for a little while admittedly, but only recently taken to the hand tools, so in that I am a novice.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with this design but it's not the only easy way to make a bench and mine was largely based on what I saw in the Schwarz books.

Mine is very simple, maybe 15-20 hrs over a few weekends, including fetching the wood. As I said, I'm a novice and slow, that's about the same amount of time I'd spend making a reasonably simple jewellery box. It's a basic, heavy, flat top sat on a simple, base. It's not finished like a piece of furniture (I agree, some of the benches Landis's book seem a bit over the top), there's a few rough edges but the time went into making the joints accurate and strong.

 

[Eric The Viking]

Sorry Jacob, I think that's inverted snobbery.

Schwartz's book is a good read and the construction isn't complex (and he suggests softwood, too). Most importantly he explains why things are where and how they are -- something you appreciate, I know -- so the reader can make an informed choice about what and what not to copy. For example, you really don't need huge and hard to make M+T joints in the top.

Also the triple-ply suggestion above is a really good alternative (if it's good enough ply to start with!). Heck, mine is 3/8" ply on thick chipboard. It's got ribs beneath, and it's well rigid enough for pretty much most things. I'm not strong enough to move it about with a saw, mallet or plane, so it'll do for me! I don't like the layout, and if I'd read Schwartz first*, I wouldn't have made the mistakes I did.

And frankly, that "English pattern" sucks. The drawer will get in the way and clamping anything down to the front edge is a PITA. Yes I know you can clamp to the apron, and I can on mine, but I do that about 1/10th as often as clamping things onto the top. And where are the holdfasts?

Worst of all, it's built for a right-handed person

E.

*he was probably still in nursery school when I made it!

 

[Jacob]

......
And frankly, that "English pattern" sucks. The drawer will get in the way and clamping anything down to the front edge is a PITA.

It's not the definitive perfect bench it's just a very common and popular pattern (with many variations) and amongst the easiest to build. The drawer and holdfasts are some of the many options which could suit some and not others

Yes I know you can clamp to the apron, and I can on mine, but I do that about 1/10th as often as clamping things onto the top
Worst of all, it's built for a right-handed person

If you need holdfasts then add holdfasts, and/or dogs, end vices, left handed vices etc etc you name it.
I've got one dog and one holdfast, which seems to suit me. You tend to find a way to do things without the accessories you haven't got, which in general is a good idea IMHO.

 

[Jelly]

Sorry Jacob, I think that's inverted snobbery.

Yes and no, if you asked a dozen different joiners/carpenters to make/replace their bench, I'd be willing to put money on it that none of them would look the same and that they would probably look nothing like the benches that are now popular amongst hobbyists either... In fact I'd be willing to bet a little less (say a pint) that you wouldn't see any exotic vices either, just cast ones.

The truth is that those designs are glamorous and polished takes on an older functional item, and the average bench used commercially is made from whatever was cheap or already to hand... Got loads of unused tongue and groove that's about to be skipped? Grab the glue you've found a free bench top! Got those reject components from a big window? The legs will look fine with that sash ovolo still on them mate, don't waste time cutting it off! Old window sill lying about? There's that shelf you wanted!

That's not to say that the features aren't useful, simply that hand-woodworking is now sufficiently specialized that almost everyone who is doing it as a full time occupation is also an enthusiast too, many of the features for workholding we talk about on benches are not actually that useful if you're doing the bulk of your work with a powertool be it (static or hand-held).

 

[Eric The Viking]

I half agree!

Jacob said this:

Sounds good! Schwarz and Landis's books are interesting but not a lot of help for the novice IMHO as neither book shows a basic bench, as though they never existed.
I see them as books for bench enthusiasts not for woodworkers who just need a good bench like this one:

I haven't read Landis, but Schwarz is full of practical thoughts and detail, and good sense. His whole thesis is about the practicality of these benches, and why they were made in the way they were. He suggests using construction-grade timber, for example (and does). His point is the same as yours - make a bench from whatever is to hand, BUT if you want to focus on production efficiency, albeit with mainly hand tools, these things help and those things hinder.

My point--and I hope I'm not representing him--is that Schwarz would say the bench Jacob suggested, whilst arguably a more common design (and yes, I've seen quite a few like that down the years), is less efficient than the designs he suggests. For example, he specifically addresses the nuisance value of a drawer in that spot, and the alternative of a shelf below. Having used my grandfather's bench as a child (to that design), I'd have to agree.

There are two benches in Schwarz's book: English (aproned) style and Roubo. He doesn't explicitly say so, and I can understand why, but you get the impression he's decided each is slightly better for different tasks. He does say the Roubo is the best compromise, and it makes sense to me. But neither design truly precludes being made from scrap, and he's almost rude about the embedded type of 'posh' end-vice (effort not worth the return).

The thing is, neither is hard to do, unless you're after a work of cabinetry in its own right. Neither bench is beyond a novice really - you need space and tools, but not tremendous skills per se. The arguable exception is draw-boring the joints, but that's not necessary with modern glues and a well fitting M+T (mine have lasted close to 30 years with PVA and without pegs, and the M+Ts are frankly rubbish). And they will scale too.

(sound of old fart clambering off soapbox)

E.

(edit: Oops! It's Schwarz with no "t". Jacob undoubtedly has a sharper memory than me!)

 

[MIGNAL]

I knocked up my bench from softwood (Birch Ply top) over 20 years ago. It will see me out and another generation or so. One thing I did when buying the PAR Pine was to carefully select straighter, tighter grained, relatively knot free pieces. It might not be necessary but for the few minutes extra it takes to shift through the pile you may as well try to get the good stuff. Go to a place that has a decent selection.
If you had both the time and the inclination you could probably scavenge enough material to make a bench for next to nothing. It will just take longer.