Neighbours built over our property - need legal agreement

[Jake]

]I am surprised by your opinion, that wasn't how I thought it worked. I've used party wall agreements on things like loft extensions, but I can't see why a neighbour would ever have to take your excess water, when it would be normal for you to just extend a few inches less and take it yourself. I've built close to party walls myself, I wouldn't have expected to be able to do that. Although it's not much water, I don't see why I should have it on my path. I'll ask my architect at some point, as he deals with party walls, and see what he says.

I'm not criticising, I'd be really annoyed if my neighbour did this to me.

But, there's no meaningful difference in terms of water spillage between what he has done and rebuilding the party fence wall as his actual extension wall, which wouldn't have been particularly controversial (and would probably have been a lot better/neater for you than the status quo).

I'm not saying he hasn't been an aris - he clearly has. And it's butt ugly what he's done, and it's just plain wrong to just do it without any consent from you.

 

[Lons]

Hi
From the photo it looks as if their gutter doesn't actually extend past the centre line of the party wall in which case it isn't an issue. Might just be the photo of course.

It's unlikely you can make your neighbour paint his wall but you could offer to do it on his behalf in which case you'd also need to repaint when necessary. You're the only one who looks at it so to your benefit.

The leadwork definitely breaches your party wall rights but it could be costly to solve this legally. Certainly you should have been notified within the alloted times and have been asked to give permission. Very difficult to refuse in an instance like yours and he would have got it. The leadwork is very poorly done however and in your place I would simply re-form it as far as the centre line to redirect the water to his side. Don't cut it as it remains his property just form a gutter with it and then problem gone and nothing to affect future sale.

Or maybe there are other underlying issues and you didn't want the extension in the first place?

I would have thought better a solid wall than glass btw as you wouldn't want the neighbours looking down over your garden.
I'm a builder incidently :wink:

Bob

 

[rafezetter]

I'd get in touch with your local planning officer & see what he has to say about it, sound very dubious to me

But that would simply be getting them to make the neighbours re-build, rather than leave it as is as long as they don't **** us off, or object to planning when we apply.

If he's a building dev, he might be planning to sell up and give the problem to the next unwitting owner

In 2012 a builder mate had a similar issue on a addition / revamp build he was doing - he didn't make the problem, as the home owner had not arranged things with his next door neighbour regarding the party wall and it cost the home owner (my mates client) 10k to put right what he should have sorted before building even began, and put the build over by six months costing my friend a lot of lost work, which he then billed the homeowner for a portion of as an overrun fee. I mention this last as if you do decide to do similar, this unresolved issue could come back and royally bite you in the pineapple.

If you do decide to be lenient - I would get a letter drafted through a solicitor sent to them laying out options, and what you expect them to do in return for this leniency.

However even if he does agree (in writing) to put it right and not make any objections for you to do your own addition (if that's even legally possible to enforce) - this agreement will only stand with that owner and any new owner will be free to object as normal.

So even though you're considering playing nice and offering him the possibility of a get-out-of-jail card you could still be fooling yourself into thinking he (or any new owner) will play the same game - and when it comes to property some people can be particularly "precious" about it. I'm sure you've read stories of neighbours going out of their way to disrupt good neighbours asking nicely for them to do stuff they have a legal responsibility for.

I'd be inclined to get him to do as he's legally bound and cross any other bridge as it comes. His mistake, his cost, tough dung. He'll know next time won't he?

PS do party wall infringements show up in survey's? If so I would DEFINITELY get it sorted to legal requirements so you have no selling issues when the time comes.

 

[Triggaaar]

Thanks all for the replies and advice.

I'm not criticising

I know. You're saying what you think the law is, and I'm just surprised.

But, there's no meaningful difference in terms of water spillage between what he has done and rebuilding the party fence wall as his actual extension wall, which wouldn't have been particularly controversial

But if he asked to build the party wall higher, and I said no, I wouldn't expect he'd be allowed to. It's half my wall.

Hi
From the photo it looks as if their gutter doesn't actually extend past the centre line of the party wall in which case it isn't an issue.

No, his gutter isn't past the centre line - the gutter is not the issue. His ply and led are past the centre line, and he sends his rain water dripping down my white wall.

The leadwork definitely breaches your party wall rights but it could be costly to solve this legally. Certainly you should have been notified within the alloted times and have been asked to give permission. Very difficult to refuse in an instance like yours and he would have got it.

He would have got what? And what's the legal reasoning behind that?

The leadwork is very poorly done however and in your place I would simply re-form it as far as the centre line to redirect the water to his side.

You're saying send the water to his side - where? And how does that tally with 'he would have got it'?

Or maybe there are other underlying issues and you didn't want the extension in the first place?

No, I never objected to his planning app.

I would have thought better a solid wall than glass btw as you wouldn't want the neighbours looking down over your garden.

The glass wall would have a) been obscured, and b) been over 2m high, on the ground floor.

If he's a building dev, he might be planning to sell up and give the problem to the next unwitting owner

I don't think he's selling.

In 2012 a builder mate had a similar issue on a addition / revamp build he was doing - he didn't make the problem, as the home owner had not arranged things with his next door neighbour regarding the party wall and it cost the home owner (my mates client) 10k to put right what he should have sorted before building even began, and put the build over by six months costing my friend a lot of lost work, which he then billed the homeowner for a portion of as an overrun fee. I mention this last as if you do decide to do similar, this unresolved issue could come back and royally bite you in the pineapple.

In terms of doing similar, I don't plan to send my lead over a wall. So your mates clients had done similar to my neighbours. What is it that made them have to re-do it, as that's the legal aspect I need.

If you do decide to be lenient - I would get a letter drafted through a solicitor sent to them laying out options, and what you expect them to do in return for this leniency.

If it's more a party wall thing, then I assume I should speak to my architect first (I've not spoken to him for over a year, but he's done lots of work for me and does a lot of party wall agreements).

However even if he does agree (in writing) to put it right and not make any objections for you to do your own addition (if that's even legally possible to enforce) - this agreement will only stand with that owner and any new owner will be free to object as normal.

I wouldn't ask him to not object to my own addition. It's highly unlikely they'd object to our addition, unless it was out of spite, as they won't be able to see ours (much smaller). If we had an agreement in writing, then it's unlikely they'd object, knowing I'd get them to redo their work. I'd have to find out about the agreement being attached to the deeds (which could be costly), or just reach a financial agreement.

 

[Jake]

But if he asked to build the party wall higher, and I said no, I wouldn't expect he'd be allowed to. It's half my wall.

It doesn't work like that, you don't get a veto on what is done to a party wall because you are one of the parties. Too many people would demand ransoms.

 

[Triggaaar]

It doesn't work like that, you don't get a veto on what is done to a party wall because you are one of the parties. Too many people would demand ransoms.

Ok, thanks for the info.

 

[Lons]

No, his gutter isn't past the centre line - the gutter is not the issue. His ply and led are past the centre line, and he sends his rain water dripping down my white wall.

I mentioned the gutter because you did in your original post. Misread it and thought that was part of your issue.

But if he asked to build the party wall higher, and I said no, I wouldn't expect he'd be allowed to. It's half my wall

He would very likely have received permission anyway, just taken longer.

He would have got what? And what's the legal reasoning behind that?
You're saying send the water to his side - where? And how does that tally with 'he would have got it'?

See comment above and as far as the leadwork he would probably be allowed anyway. The lead isn't a planning issue it would be encompassed within building regs but they would see that as a very minor detail as it isn't projecting water from major parts of the building just protecting a small gap between wall and extension. What should have happened is you would have been consulted and an application/notification made reference the party wall act. Had you objected to the detail they would needed to have explored other methods or even built tight against the wall leaving no gap or on top of their half once addequate footings were installed. It's more common than you might think.
If they had been a bit more clever they would have extended the lead only to the centre line which wouldn't encroach on your side but would still shed water your way and it's highly unlikely you could do a damn thing about it. As said there will be little additional water and depending on the orientation of the building it might even offer protection from wind blown rain.

I'm not a legal expert, I'm a builder offering you the benefit of my experience to take or leave as you wish and I think you know the answer is to talk first maybe to your architect as you say he has experience with party walls. Failing that you have to take action first through building control (ring the bco and ask his opinion!) or via solicitors.

The tone of your questions seem rather "sharp" Triggaaar, am I misreading that as well as it kind of puts me off bothering to respond?

cheers
Bob

ps
I've just completed major work including extension on my sons "new" victorian terrace house. There are party walls either side, one of which has been built over for a neighbours extension. The dozy kitchen fitters had put an extractor outlet projecting over and facing out over my sons property, clearly a breach though apparently they asked verbal permision from the then elderly owners. that permision if obtained in the first place stood for nothing and the BCO really wasn't interested. Istead of going through the legal channels or just blocking it off I had a chat with the neighbours and offered to re-directed it. Cost only a few quid and ensured my son enjoys a good relationship with them.
Doesn't matter what you currently think about your neihbour not selling, it could still happen at any time - thats' life.

 

[Stimpi]

It is very difficult to make judgements on a boundary wall dispute, miles away from the scene. Statements have been made which are basically correct but until the circumstances are established are not facts.

Quote, But I can't see why a neighbor would ever have to take your excess water
Quite common, 60% of the properties on the estate I live on this applies.

Quote, it’s nothing to do with the council. The council will ensure that the builder (not the owner) has done this in a proper manner including where it drains to.

Quote, The Party Wall Act gives neighbor statutory rights to do things to party walls including a party fence wall

Party wall agreements were a London thing till round about 1984 with the demise of the District Surveyors they became National. To give a 2 hour seminar in a few words is impossible. A brief snapshot. An agreement in writing. One of two parties’ can say I am building an extension next to your property this is what I am doing. Discussions follow, agreements made, all put down in writing, agreement lodged. Or:- one of the parties says I am employing a party wall surveyor you can if you wish, its silly to spend money twice on this matter shall we share? Checks to see if a proper surveyor with correct indemnity, Or, I don’t want to share its all about liability I will employ my own surveyor with the proper indemnities and he will look after my interests.

There are certain inspections in party wall where witness of a process is carried out, e.g. Fire stops or smoke barriers. Building Control can only be present for spot checks they can’t be there to supervise.

Then there is the fence. The owner of the fence is the one who paid for it. The face of the fence must be on the boundary line. The face of the fence must face outwards. It must not be higher than 2M. The boundary line is usually exactly half way between properties. It must never be encroached on.

If you think your in the right send a solicitors letter. Check with building control if they inspected.

 

[Triggaaar]

The tone of your questions seem rather "sharp" Triggaaar, am I misreading that as well as it kind of puts me off bothering to respond?

Sorry, just reply to a lot of messages and getting things down bluntly and quickly when I get the chance, I didn't mean to be rude.

 

[Lons]

The tone of your questions seem rather "sharp" Triggaaar, am I misreading that as well as it kind of puts me off bothering to respond?

Sorry, just reply to a lot of messages and getting things down bluntly and quickly when I get the chance, I didn't mean to be rude.

That's what I thought and perfectly understandable as you're concerned and wound up about the situation.
I'm sure you'll get it sorted but to avoid escalating costs I'd highly recommend you sit down with your neighbour and discuss it in a calm but firm manner. he won't want mosre expense either and might be more helpful than you think once he realises it isn't going to go away.

Good luck with it

Bob

 

[johnny]

Your neighbour may have been unaware of the potential problem at the start of work. Builders unless properly supervised will build their foundations right up to a boundary fence or wall but wouldn't appreciate the implications of that when the roof and eaves and guttering is applied to the wall much later.

Saying that it sounds to me like you are putting off an inevitable showdown about this issue .
If its an issue now it is going to be a whole lot more of an issue when you come to sell your house.

If your neighbour isn't going to do anything about it now......... he is even less likely to something about it later when the extension is built and finished !.He's certainly not going to knock his extension down in a few years time because it causes you some issues with potential buyers.

You need to resolve this now, not later or its going to nag away at you and worry you and cause you stress and probably ruin the relationship you have with your neighbours .

If its just a few inches why not let him have it in return for him paying for a new boundary fence to be put up which becomes your property and your new boundary line. When finished nobody is going to be any the wiser are they ?

Its often impossible to determine exactly where a boundary line lies anyway because at the scale they are drawn at on property deeds is so tiny that the pen line is often as thick as a 350mm garden wall or greater.
My advice as a retired Building Surveyor who has handled a lot of party wall agreements and boundary disputes etc is to settle it now, ammicably perhaps with a small trade of some kind or it will cost a lot more later when Solicitors get involved

 

[Lons]

Your neighbour may have been unaware of the potential problem at the start of work. Builders unless properly supervised will build their foundations right up to a boundary fence or wall but wouldn't appreciate the implications of that when the roof and eaves and guttering is applied to the wall much later.

Not all builders are so poorly informed johnny and you really shouldn't generalise.

Small companies with a reputation to protect are usually very careful to ensure they follow the correct practises and stay within the regulations.

It's how I built my business and I know many others of similar ilk.

Perhaps things are different in your part of the world?

cheers
Bob

 

[johnny]

yes you are quite right Bob one shouldn't generalise. I apologise

 

[Lons]

yes you are quite right Bob one shouldn't generalise. I apologise

Not a problem for me Johnny.

All the TV coverage of cowboy builders and the problems that the bad ones cause don't do businesses like mine any harm at all. All my work is word of mouth, never advertised and have never been short of work in 16 years. Reputation is everything.

cheers
Bob