Need some advice on jointer planes

[siggy_7]

Although I've been on this forum for a few years, I think this is my first visit to the hand tool section so please be gentle with me

I am not normally a hand tool woodworker, but I have need in the very near future (i.e. this week) to glue up some 40mm sapele for use as a kitchen worktop. I'm not happy with the accuracy of the edge I can get with my normal power tool methods, and I have concluded that using a bench plane is probably the way to go to get a true surface for gluing. Given we are talking about 40mm thick hardwood up to 600mm wide, I don't think the usual technique of making the edges slightly curved to get some "spring" is a very good idea, so I reckon dead straight is the way to go.

Now you know the task I would like to tackle, I think that a No.7 jointer plane is the way to go. Given my relatively limited use of hand tools, budgetary wise I imagine the sensible thing to do would be to pick up a used old record plane rather than splash out a quite considerable sum on the Quansheng I was eyeing up, which doesn't seem like a good investment for a tool I'm not likely to use very often. The dilema I have however is that a) I don't really know what I'm doing to fix any flaws in an older plane, and b) I don't have much time to do so either. I presume that for my particular task, the sole flatness is of particular importance on something as hefty as a jointer plane to get a true edge? I would imagine that for someone who doesn't know what he's doing that flattening the sole of a 22" bench plane is going to be a challenging and time consuming affair.

Even assuming I am able to obtain a decent plane, is my idea of being able to get the results I'm looking for with very little practice a sensible one or should I look for other options to accomplish my task? Although not much involved with hand tools, I do have a set of Ultex diamond sharpening plates up to 1200 grit and a Veritas honing guide which I use for my chisels and existing plane irons (block and smoothing). I've no doubt that my results would leave much to be desired for most of you, but I am able to get what I consider to be an acceptably sharp edge with these methods so I think I can keep the plane sharp enough for the task I'm hoping to accomplish.

As you can probably tell, I feel quite out of my depth here and any advice is welcome.

 

[Bodgers]

Although I've been on this forum for a few years, I think this is my first visit to the hand tool section so please be gentle with me

I am not normally a hand tool woodworker, but I have need in the very near future (i.e. this week) to glue up some 40mm sapele for use as a kitchen worktop. I'm not happy with the accuracy of the edge I can get with my normal power tool methods, and I have concluded that using a bench plane is probably the way to go to get a true surface for gluing. Given we are talking about 40mm thick hardwood up to 600mm wide, I don't think the usual technique of making the edges slightly curved to get some "spring" is a very good idea, so I reckon dead straight is the way to go.

Now you know the task I would like to tackle, I think that a No.7 jointer plane is the way to go. Given my relatively limited use of hand tools, budgetary wise I imagine the sensible thing to do would be to pick up a used old record plane rather than splash out a quite considerable sum on the Quansheng I was eyeing up, which doesn't seem like a good investment for a tool I'm not likely to use very often. The dilema I have however is that a) I don't really know what I'm doing to fix any flaws in an older plane, and b) I don't have much time to do so either. I presume that for my particular task, the sole flatness is of particular importance on something as hefty as a jointer plane to get a true edge? I would imagine that for someone who doesn't know what he's doing that flattening the sole of a 22" bench plane is going to be a challenging and time consuming affair.

Even assuming I am able to obtain a decent plane, is my idea of being able to get the results I'm looking for with very little practice a sensible one or should I look for other options to accomplish my task? Although not much involved with hand tools, I do have a set of Ultex diamond sharpening plates up to 1200 grit and a Veritas honing guide which I use for my chisels and existing plane irons (block and smoothing). I've no doubt that my results would leave much to be desired for most of you, but I am able to get what I consider to be an acceptably sharp edge with these methods so I think I can keep the plane sharp enough for the task I'm hoping to accomplish.

As you can probably tell, I feel quite out of my depth here and any advice is welcome.

Others might be better qualified than me to answer but, buying a high end-ish jointer plane to joint a 600mm kitchen worktop seems a bit OTT to me.

If you aren't going down some sort of hand tool route, a half decent tracksaw or a router with a kitchen fitters jig is the way to go surely?


I did a worktop join with hardware fixture's, not glue, so not sure if that's the right way to go down, even with solid wood.

 

[MikeG.]

There isn't the slightest chance that you could buy a plane, get it out of the box and joint up two boards with it as your first job. Not a chance. You'll make a far better job of it straight off a planing machine or whatever. You could probably do a better job with a router.

Edge jointing boards is not easy until you've practised enough, and got your plane set up perfectly. I've been doing it for 30 years, and I fouled it up mightily a few weeks ago doing a "quick favour" for a friend. It really isn't a job to take on lightly.

 

[siggy_7]

Thanks for the advice both, I have a decent Track saw so I guess I will have to trust it to do a straight enough job. Perhaps I wasn't explicit enough in my earlier message - this is a long grain/long grain glue up to make a wider top from two existing pieces of full stave worktop not a conventional corner joint. Trying to achieve as seamless a glue line as possible, I don't want it to be obvious compared to the factory glue lines. But Mike your honest advice is what I needed to hear to tell me how to proceed, so thank you.

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

 

[D_W]

I can't speak to learning curve, I joint everything by hand and when I took away the power jointer option, it took very little time to learn to do it competently.

I wouldn't buy the woodriver type jointer plane, it's overweight and expensive for what it is. Expensive isn't a problem in the long term, but being substantially heavier than professionals demanded in the past is a real problem, coupled with accurate sole milling results in a LOT of friction.

If I were going to find a good vintage jointer plane, I would buy three and keep the best one and sell the other two. You'll take a little bit of a loss selling off the two that aren't as good, but you're unlikely to buy three vintage planes and have them all be duds.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

As you already have a smoothing plane which gives you acceptable results, how about using that? Offer the two edges together, and mark where they touch. Separate them again, and take a cautious, fine shaving or two off the high spots. Offer the boards again, and ditto repeato. As the gaps become smaller (hopefully!) reduce to one very fine shaving at a time. Check also that the boards are flat when together - lay a straightedge across the two, to see if a sliver needs removing from one side of one of the edges to bring them flat. Take a very slow and methodical approach, and if things are getting tense or confusing, walk away for a while, have a brew and a calm down, then have another slow, careful appraisal.

That may be a slow process, and may take half an hour or an hour (or more!) to get a really good, tight, flat joint, but there's no reason why it shouldn't work with patience and care. Certainly a jointer plane is the 'proper' tool, but obtaining one, setting it up and becoming familiar with it is asking a lot in just a week. It may be worth it later, when there's time to practice, to add a jointer and the skill to use it, because it would certainly be quicker than using the smoother , but if you're up against a time constraint, use what you have and are familiar with.

 

[D_W]

An ideal situation would be if someone else with a used vintage jointer plane that was actually in use wanted to offer it up to you.

I went through a period where (because I make tools, too), I was buying and refurbishing a lot of planes. At the time, I thought (and still do), it would be nice if someone would set up a tool for beginners and provide it at cost. Perhaps one per year.

I found that nobody really appreciated it. It is, however, an excellent option if someone offers something up. Then the learning curve is zero. If there had been more appreciation for it, I would still do it as I have a toolmaker's setup and it takes about a half hour at most for me to get a decent #4 ready to use, fully lapped, iron lapped, cap iron set up and everything else checked and solved.

I think the average user will have more success with vintage irons (pre 1960s or so) because they grind easier (which means less chance of a burn, or faster hand grinding) and sharpen easier, and if using the cap iron is combined with them from the start, they will last longer than you between sharpenings.

I started chasing the hardest irons I could find, but flip flopped upon learning to use the cap iron to wanting irons that wear without chipping.

 

[thetyreman]

you could probably do it with a no5 1/2 I find myself using that plane the most anyway, it's a very useful plane to have but like anything it needs setting up and the sole flattening, unless it's a lie neilsen, veritas or clifton.

 

[skeetstar]

I'm with mikeg on this. Getting a long board edge flat and square is no mean feat. The internet gurus make it look easy but it isn't. I progressed in steps... First I managed to get the edge smooth. Then after more practice I managed to get it straight along its length. Next comes getting the edge square. I can do that on shorter lengths, but long boards still defeat me.

Don't be put off buying the plane, but don't imagine that you will get the results you need with just a sharp iron and a few strokes. It will take time and practice. For that job that needs doing now, id use a router and the best quality cutter available.

That said, get the plane, practice and do it by hand next time. All the best.

 

[MusicMan]

A great help in jointing long boards is to use a shooting board set up. Custard has described this on this forum. You grind the plane iron square, set it up square to the side, then use the plane on its side. Clamp the work to the bench with a thin spacer (eg hardboard). You use the jointer itself to get the straightness but check it with a straight edge.

You can get long straight edges that are quite good from carpet laying tool suppliers. I got a 2.5m one from Rufina, and it was not expensive. Before I had a long jointer, I used a heavy router with a 1/2" flute cutter and guided it along the straight edge (which was clamped to the work). This gave a good enough edge for glueing. The pics below show the top of a 7 foot yew desk, about 40 mm thick after finishing. I wasn't aiming for invisibility here but of massive contrast given the wild grain in the yew, but the glue line was nevertheless pretty tight, as shown. There was not a learning curve; I had not done this size board jointing before, and all 5 or 6 joints worked fine.

Keith

 

[DTR]

you could probably do it with a no5 1/2 I find myself using that plane the most anyway, it's a very useful plane to have but like anything it needs setting up and the sole flattening, unless it's a lie neilsen, veritas or clifton.

My bench planes are all 1950s - 60s vintage, all bought from bootsales. I haven't needed to flatten any of them.

 

[thetyreman]

you could probably do it with a no5 1/2 I find myself using that plane the most anyway, it's a very useful plane to have but like anything it needs setting up and the sole flattening, unless it's a lie neilsen, veritas or clifton.

My bench planes are all 1950s - 60s vintage, all bought from bootsales. I haven't needed to flatten any of them.

wish I could say that, of all my planes the no 4 and 4 1/2 have been the flattest, interestingly they are both earlier planes, the 5 1/2 and no7 are made later, you are lucky there.

 

[D_W]

That's why I'd suggest buying 3 and keeping the best. It's just as easy to do that as it is to learn to flatten a jointer (which generally is done better with a method other than just lapping).

This is actually not bad practice for any vintage bench plane that's common. The first plane will usually be good enough to clean up and make an excellent plane, but not everyone likes to do that. If you buy three, guaranteed that you'll like some better than others.

I have flattened about a dozen vintage jointers, and some have been as far out of flat (hollow in this case) as .012". It's a better idea to just cast a plane like that off and get a different one.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Two foolproof jointing methods:

1. Using a long shooting board. Below is a video of Terry Gordon (HNT Gordon) and his Trying Plane:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbkdWMIBhNc

2. Use a jointer with a side fence:

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Ttrees]

I would do that with a Stanley no. 51/2
Look for one with a thick sole as plenty of planes, especially the Record's of that length are
really thin for some reason, so I suspect someone lapped them wrong.
Try to find a plane that you can see how thick the casting is looking head on, so the branded logo on the lever cap is looking at you straight, and from the back also, so the tote (back handle) is fully in the photo.
I haven't had to lap the two 1950'( ish) Stanley planes I have, compared to a no.8 I have which needed some work, these 1950's Stanley's are heavier planes than some others I have.
The longer the plane the more chance of it being out.

I wouldn't try laminating boards in such a rush, without a dead flat surface to plane on
Have you got a composite fire door for instance or something similar?
It needs to be....
Rigid as in... won't deflect into a hollow, if you just have an old bench what's hacked up.
Stable as in....It stays within tolerance ...and finally
Flat ...a surface that you can trust.

I suggest an angle poise lamp or other lamp which can project light in an area with around a 7" lampshade (a lesser sized lampshade bedside lamp is not so good for projecting light) You can make your own larger lampshade for them :roll:
so you can "candle" which simply means shining the light under the timber, inbetween
the work and the bench, you want to end up with no light under the timber.

I would get a calipers that can lock so you can set it (you don't have to read it, just use it by feel)
So you surface it on one face, wider surface first.
Find the lowest point on the piece, lock the calipers to that,
and scribe a line this width, so you can plane down to it.
Flip this newly planed face over and see where it pivots from, you want it to be pivoting on just the edges, so that you only need one skimming pass to finish off.
Make sure the timber is not rocking, or spinning in the middle like a propeller on the bench.

Use the rubbing/burnishing technique on your reference, if you need to just kiss something to get it 100%, a technique what's used on wider boards.
Stopped shavings are something to look up, as the plane will naturally nosedive off the ends that you are planing, if you use a camber.
Planing with the cap iron set will vastly reduce this phenomenon.
You will need to set the cap iron to have influence because the Sapele will more than likely have ribbon striping, and there's hardly any way around this as the bandings have alternating grain what tears out, unless the cap iron is set.
Piccys coming

 

[MikeG.]

Oh dear........ Here we go again with the pointless complications.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Or save yourself some grief and get a straight edge and a cutter such as this for your router -
https://www.wealdentool.com/acatalog/On ... im_23.html
Top and bottom bearings, so you'll find other uses for it.

 

[Bodgers]

OP has probably long since lost interest, but if this is joining two 600mm wide kitchen tops end to end, we are talking end grain as well. Which adds to the difficulty.

Router jig has to be the way the pros do it.

Save the jointer plane purchase for building furniture.



Sent from my Redmi Note 5 using Tapatalk

 

[D_W]

Not sure how we got to joining end grain - I think 60cm is the width the OP is talking about for the sections that are to be joined together, making it hard to use a sprung joint.

I have done a fair number of joints like this (with hand tools only) and think it's probably easier than man-handling large pieces on power tools. I've also used a router bit of the type discussed here with guitar bodies (just never joining pieces if the body is two pieces), and there are some compromises, but it would work fine. Bigger base for more accuracy, and a fine final cut to avoid tearing out at the edge - which would remain visible.

I still find this easiest to do with a plane. plane both boards dead square and straight, lay them on top of each other and find any high spots in the joint and knock them down with a smoother set finely until there are no high spots and the faces of the boards test true with a straight edge. On a very long joint, this might take an hour total from rough (two pieces joined), and I generally do it with two rough boards to start and plane the finished product to thickness later. The power tool routine would be different, I'm sure, because the finished product would be difficult to get through a planer.

Not sure that there are many pros doing this in volume, but if they are, I'm sure they have CNC, a high quality power jointer (large) or a sliding saw that is accurate enough so that they're not left using a router. The router seems to me like the same kind of promise as "perfect" hand tools. In theory, everything is accurate with it, all the way down to a template's accuracy. In practice, stuff happens that keeps it from being perfect.

 

[Tasky]

I don't really know what I'm doing to fix any flaws in an older plane, and I don't have much time to do so either.

Get one already restored from somewhere like Tooltique.
Those usually just require a sharpen, which I assume you know how to do on your smoother.

Even assuming I am able to obtain a decent plane, is my idea of being able to get the results I'm looking for with very little practice a sensible one or should I look for other options to accomplish my task?

You will never get any results without at least some practice.
If it needs absolute fraction-of-a-milimetre-perfect precision within a couple of days attempting, then possibly not, especially in Sapele....

Have you got a composite fire door ?

I've just thought of a new drinking game...