Mock ye not !!

[Jacob]

No but it's much the same as Paul Sellers method here.

Except that Seller flattens and mirrors polishes his backs, works through a succession of diamond grits finishing at 9 micron, instead of a single (43 micron - "coarse" in diamond plate jargon) India stone, he uses a different lubricant, and then uses a strop loaded with 0.5 micron paste to mirror polish the bevel.

Apart from that, much the same.

BugBear

According to Mr Seller's video he is using coarse (250) Medium (800) and fine (1200) diamond plates, I think they are eze type?

Yes "Eze-lap" you can get them from Tilgear.

 

[Jacob]

well Jacob, to be fair I gave his method a go and I was amazed at how well it worked, particularly on a 1st time try out. I used a bog standard norton abandoned around 6 years ago in favour of the ubixquitous water stones. (1200? grit, not sure, cuts fast though) lubed with white spirit, then solvol polish to strop. I did a set of 5 chisels in just a few minutes, and I was astonished actually, the wire edges just peeled off and all 5 were slicing paring sharp very fast, even taking clean slices off crumbly pine end grain. It seemed too good to be true. I suddenly thought this method works WITH the natural motion of a blade moving back and forth over a stone, not against it-raised a little at the back, dropped a little by the time it gets to the front of the pass. No need to agonise about maintaining a human version of a honing guide either. Just the one stone, suddenly there seems to be no real need for a tormek and a set of japanese stones, and all the fiddly maintenance, fragility etc associated with them. Plus I forgot how good it was to hone on a proper solid surface. I mean those jap stones arent cheap and a lot of them seem to end up as wasted dust. Hey maybe my technique with the waterstones was off, but to be fair I gave it a good go, but I want to work wood, not be a pro sharpener.... :idea: The system you and Mr Sellers use is OK as far as I can tell, and I intend to keep working with it, its fast and it delivers the result you want, no fuss sharp edges in a short time.

Glad it's working for you!
It's easy to forget that all the new sharpening stuff is very recent - 30 years ago hardly anybody used jigs, diamond stones, water stones etc etc yet sharpening was not seen as a problem, except for beginners of course. Not much had changed in 100s of years of unproblematic sharpening.
Having said that I have to say that two modern things radically improve oil stone usage - a 3M diapad for refreshing the surface and a rare earth magnet for lifting off swarf. Doesn't do to stick in the past!

 

[Cottonwood]

Your welcome Jacob.
I mean even the tormek, which can produce decent edges, needs maintenance. That jolly old wheel has to be trued regular and a lot of the wheel rather qiuckly ends up as a bunch of slurry dust in the collecting tray. But you can of course get replacement wheels, £70 or £80? They do a complete kit, best part of £1000. LOL I'd much rather spend on decent timber like pitch pine or something, the sharpening industry, its prolific these days, and I speak as one who has woken up and realised I was stung and been had.....
:idea: My seemingly redundant water stones could possibly be recycled & ground up to make stropping paste??? :shock:

 

[bugbear]

Not much had changed in 100s of years of unproblematic sharpening.

100s is (as usual) a severe overstatement,

Aluminium Oxide, Silicon Carbide and Carborundum were all first synthesised in the late 19th century, and had a major effect on everyday sharpening. The India stone you drone on about ad nauseam is from this time.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

Oh dear what a little troll. Ad nauseum indeed!
Yes to new materials, basically speeding things up, no to any particular changes in technique. Modern techniques/materials slowing things back down again?

 

[Corneel]

Your welcome Jacob.
I mean even the tormek, which can produce decent edges, needs maintenance. That jolly old wheel has to be trued regular and a lot of the wheel rather qiuckly ends up as a bunch of slurry dust in the collecting tray. But you can of course get replacement wheels, £70 or £80? They do a complete kit, best part of £1000. LOL I'd much rather spend on decent timber like pitch pine or something, the sharpening industry, its prolific these days, and I speak as one who has woken up and realised I was stung and been had.....
:idea: My seemingly redundant water stones could possibly be recycled & ground up to make stropping paste??? :shock:

Any reason why you can't use this technique with your waterstones?

 

[bugbear]

Yes to new materials, basically speeding things up, no to any particular changes in technique.

So what stones (be specific) would you use if you suddenly didn't have stones made from the synthetics I listed?

Would the rates of cutting and stone wear affect your choice of technique in any way?

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

Your welcome Jacob.
I mean even the tormek, which can produce decent edges, needs maintenance. That jolly old wheel has to be trued regular and a lot of the wheel rather qiuckly ends up as a bunch of slurry dust in the collecting tray. But you can of course get replacement wheels, £70 or £80? They do a complete kit, best part of £1000. LOL I'd much rather spend on decent timber like pitch pine or something, the sharpening industry, its prolific these days, and I speak as one who has woken up and realised I was stung and been had.....
:idea: My seemingly redundant water stones could possibly be recycled & ground up to make stropping paste??? :shock:

Any reason why you can't use this technique with your waterstones?

As I understand it water stones are fairly soft. The main advantage of the rounded bevel dip handle thing is that you can dig hard - be quite energetic, and hence faster.
Water stones might not take the pressure but I've never tried water stones so this is just a guess.

 

[Cottonwood]

On reflection I think the jap stones, for me personally, would be more useful to me ground up into a fine stropping paste. Perhaps you could form a rounded bevel with them, but frankly, I cant be bothered any more. I had forgotten what it was like to press into the resilient norton stone without worrying if a careless pass would nick the soft surface as often happened with the jap stones....The waterstones are just too delicate for my purposes, too easily damaged, too much maintanance.

 

[Jacob]

.......The waterstones are just too delicate for my purposes, too easily damaged, too much maintanance.

I also wonder about the faster cutting of waterstones as compared to oil stones.
This is probably so if you use an oil stone in the same way as you would a water stone - with a jig and/or cautiously, tentatively etc.
But if you put some effort into an oil stone, freehand, I guess it would be quicker than a waterstone. Can't say I'm interested enough in water stones to want the bother of finding out!

 

[PAC1]

.......The waterstones are just too delicate for my purposes, too easily damaged, too much maintanance.

I also wonder about the faster cutting of waterstones as compared to oil stones.
This is probably so if you use an oil stone in the same way as you would a water stone - with a jig and/or cautiously, tentatively etc.
But if you put some effort into an oil stone, freehand, I guess it would be quicker than a waterstone. Can't say I'm interested enough in water stones to want the bother of finding out!

At the risk of causing another six pages of argument, does the above mean that you have not actually tried a waterstone to see if it is faster or better than an oilstone?

 

[woodbrains]

On reflection I think the jap stones, for me personally, would be more useful to me ground up into a fine stropping paste. Perhaps you could form a rounded bevel with them, but frankly, I cant be bothered any more. I had forgotten what it was like to press into the resilient norton stone without worrying if a careless pass would nick the soft surface as often happened with the jap stones....The waterstones are just too delicate for my purposes, too easily damaged, too much maintanance.

Hello,

You stated your waterstone is 1200 grit. This is not a fine stone and nowhere near fine enough to strop with, even if you could grind it up to do so. Norton Fine India is not a fine stone either, Norton intends that the blade is honed subsequently on Arkansas stones or equivalent. You can do as you find best suits you, of course, but things have to have a context and the general context that most sharpen to, (excepting Jacob of course) is much finer than these stones are capable of. You say you are getting faster results, but the result you are getting isn't the same, you must realise this when you make a statement. It is like saying you have the faster car, when you own a very respectable BMW. But you are making the statement to a forum of Ferrari owners.

Tormek is not a honing tool either, it is a grindstone which does not have the danger of drawing temper from the tool like a dry grinde. It is intended to be followed up with some form of honing. Most people use the Tormek to establish a primary bevel, followed by very fine honing stones to produce a secondary bevel, which can be repeated several times, until re establishing the primary bevel is needed. This makes things very fast, as only a few strokes are required with the finest stone available, and the job is done. I get the ultimate edge with as little as 4-6 strokes on the stone.

Jacob has also been told on many occasions that Norton India stones are not ancient, but relatively modern and that Japanese stone, although synthetic, mimic natural stones that have been used for millennia, so there is nothing new fangled, fashion about these stones.but like a bad penny, the same tired misinformed statements get reitterated, as though everyone forgets the corrections that were made? Bugbear is not being a troll at all, just as ticked off as many at Jacob for continually re stating his tired and comprehensively disproved myths.

Even Paul Sellers, who Jacob often mentions in the backing of his rounded bevel sharpening, actually uses stones much finer than Jacob, and probably the most modern and new fangled available, being diamond plates. And why does he use diamond? Because to get the level of sharpness he wants, norton India is not fine enough and the available oilstones that are fine are slow.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

.......The waterstones are just too delicate for my purposes, too easily damaged, too much maintanance.

I also wonder about the faster cutting of waterstones as compared to oil stones.
This is probably so if you use an oil stone in the same way as you would a water stone - with a jig and/or cautiously, tentatively etc.
But if you put some effort into an oil stone, freehand, I guess it would be quicker than a waterstone. Can't say I'm interested enough in water stones to want the bother of finding out!

At the risk of causing another six pages of argument, does the above mean that you have not actually tried a waterstone to see if it is faster or better than an oilstone?

They get such a bad press - all the difficulties, the mess, the softness, the need to flatten, the cost, the short life, rust etc I can't quite see the point. It's just so easy to whip over to an oil stone for a quick hone and straight back to work.
I'd have a go if one came my way but I'm not going to buy one.

 

[Jacob]

On reflection I think the jap stones, for me personally, would be more useful to me ground up into a fine stropping paste. Perhaps you could form a rounded bevel with them, but frankly, I cant be bothered any more. I had forgotten what it was like to press into the resilient norton stone without worrying if a careless pass would nick the soft surface as often happened with the jap stones....The waterstones are just too delicate for my purposes, too easily damaged, too much maintanance.

Hello,

You stated your waterstone is 1200 grit. This is not a fine stone and nowhere near fine enough to strop with, even if you could grind it up to do so. Norton Fine India is not a fine stone either, Norton intends that the blade is honed subsequently on Arkansas stones or equivalent. You can do as you find best suits you, of course, but things have to have a context and the general context that most sharpen to, (excepting Jacob of course) is much finer than these stones are capable of. You say you are getting faster results, but the result you are getting isn't the same, you must realise this when you make a statement. It is like saying you have the faster car, when you own a very respectable BMW. But you are making the statement to a forum of Ferrari owners.

Tormek is not a honing tool either, it is a grindstone which does not have the danger of drawing temper from the tool like a dry grinde. It is intended to be followed up with some form of honing. Most people use the Tormek to establish a primary bevel, followed by very fine honing stones to produce a secondary bevel, which can be repeated several times, until re establishing the primary bevel is needed. This makes things very fast, as only a few strokes are required with the finest stone available, and the job is done. I get the ultimate edge with as little as 4-6 strokes on the stone.

Jacob has also been told on many occasions that Norton India stones are not ancient, but relatively modern and that Japanese stone, although synthetic, mimic natural stones that have been used for millennia, so there is nothing new fangled, fashion about these stones.but like a bad penny, the same tired misinformed statements get reitterated, as though everyone forgets the corrections that were made? Bugbear is not being a troll at all, just as ticked off as many at Jacob for continually re stating his tired and comprehensively disproved myths.

Even Paul Sellers, who Jacob often mentions in the backing of his rounded bevel sharpening, actually uses stones much finer than Jacob, and probably the most modern and new fangled available, being diamond plates. And why does he use diamond? Because to get the level of sharpness he wants, norton India is not fine enough and the available oilstones that are fine are slow.

Mike.

I've got quite a few stones. I do say that a fine india stone will do for most things for most people most of the time but I also use finer ones including black and white arkansas but these are a bit too fine to be practical (you'd never get any work done). I've got several finer man made stones (don't know what they are) and a set of diamond plates same as Sellers. As I've said - it's an ongoing experiment for me - I try one , then the other. But if in doubt stick to fine india, say if you had to take just one on to a desert island!
You are a bit confused about stropping Mike - it is done with a "strop" (hence the name "stropping" geddit?) which is a piece of leather with or without added abrasives/polish. You can't do it with a stone; even if the outcome is similar it's not "stropping". Stropping strictly speaking is a razor or knife thing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stropping_(blade) but woodworkers do something similar with leather. Hope that helps.

 

[Cottonwood]

Are you calling me a liar?
Seriously?
I do know my own mind mate!
I am not arguing in favour of norton oilstones, lets clear that up. I would happily try the round bevel technique on slate or other sorts of solid resilient stone. Joiners and cabinetmakers managed to get decent edges for doing mortices and dovetails etc long before carbundurum was developed, they managed to do "a better class of work" without a tormek or a waterstone...!
I know by my own recent experience that I quickly and efficiently got VERY sharp chisels, sharp enough to cleanly and easily take end grain shavings, after just a few minutes for a set of 5 chisels, it wasnt complex, which I liked a lot. I know precisely what I was looking at after I finished honing-mirror polished rounded bevels Yes, the same result could have happened with waterstones, perhaps by someone more expert than myself; it was just faster easier and more consistent for me using the hard norton.
I know I have used the "fashionable" jap stones for 5 or 6 years and as I said, do not rate them, too fragile, messy, fiddly, you couldnt say I havent given them a fair try. Fair enough I was able to get decent edge using them, but it is such a hassle. I was willing to have a go at the round bevel method, (despite a bizarre apparent hostility to it), and was pleasantly surprised and impressed. The rounded bevel method-on an oilstone as it happens for my own recent experiment, could of been any stone-was faster, I do know that much.
I know that a tormek is a safe "cool" grindstone, and that it also strops, and it gives a decent usable edge. If you want to mess about honing after that, thats up to you!
My OILSTONE is 1200 grit (as far as I know, the finer details dont matter) I have no idea what grits the jap stones are...I used an oilstone to try out this rounded bevel method, because it was the only solid stone I have at the moment.
I also know that the tormek stones and waterstones are somewhat of a workshop consumable, they wear out relitively quickly...
Mr Sellers uses 250/800/1200 diamond stones, then a heavy strop, it works for him, or is he lying too?!

 

[woodbrains]

Are you calling me a liar?
Seriously?
I do know my own mind mate!
I am not arguing in favour of norton oilstones, lets clear that up. I would happily try the round bevel technique on slate or other sorts of solid resilient stone. Joiners and cabinetmakers managed to get decent edges for doing mortices and dovetails etc long before carbundurum was developed, they managed to do "a better class of work" without a tormek or a waterstone...!
I know by my own recent experience that I quickly and efficiently got VERY sharp chisels, sharp enough to cleanly and easily take end grain shavings, after just a few minutes for a set of 5 chisels, it wasnt complex, which I liked a lot. I know precisely what I was looking at after I finished honing-mirror polished rounded bevels Yes, the same result could have happened with waterstones, perhaps by someone more expert than myself; it was just faster easier and more consistent for me using the hard norton.
I know I have used the "fashionable" jap stones for 5 or 6 years and as I said, do not rate them, too fragile, messy, fiddly, you couldnt say I havent given them a fair try. Fair enough I was able to get decent edge using them, but it is such a hassle. I was willing to have a go at the round bevel method, (despite a bizarre apparent hostility to it), and was pleasantly surprised and impressed. The rounded bevel method-on an oilstone as it happens for my own recent experiment, could of been any stone-was faster, I do know that much.
I know that a tormek is a safe "cool" grindstone, and that it also strops, and it gives a decent usable edge. If you want to mess about honing after that, thats up to you!
My OILSTONE is 1200 grit (as far as I know, the finer details dont matter) I have no idea what grits the jap stones are...I used an oilstone to try out this rounded bevel method, because it was the only solid stone I have at the moment.
I also know that the tormek stones and waterstones are somewhat of a workshop consumable, they wear out relitively quickly...
Mr Sellers uses 250/800/1200 diamond stones, then a heavy strop, it works for him, or is he lying too?!

To whom are you referring?

If it was me, where did I call you anything at all. Where did I not say you must do whatever you think best for your situation. Do what the heck you like, but don't expect people to believe you are achieving the same ends, because you are not. You are saving time and accepting lesser results, than if you used the waterstones. if thatbis fine with you then it is fine with me. i have never tried to persuade anyone to do as i do. It looks like you said your waterstone was 1200 grit in your first post. If this is not the case, then I'm sorry if I misquoted. But there is no need to be uppity his is a discussion. And I am definitely not your mate.

Mike.

 

[Cottonwood]

Mike, you started getting uppity "mate" :roll: when you innsinuated I was, basically, lying. There was no call for that, I thought this was a forum to exchange ideas and so forth, perhaps I am mistaken? I was merely attempting to relate how a small experiment worked for me, thats about it. If you want to make sharpening routines into a big deal, thats fine, you go for it. I personally no longer want to spend time on that route, and would pefer a method that is fast, consistent, non fiddly, non messy, and definately not dependent on an extensive and costly array of fragile high maintenance kit...

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Sorry, but I'm not sure how you infer that I was calling you a liar. I definitely was not. I have no doubt you get the results you want. I did not contradict anything you said. The only thing I do not like is the continual myth reciting that accompanies these posts. Do not take offence again, because there is none intended, but another of these myths popped up again in another of your posts. 'A better quality of work was done before carborundum was invented'. Well no it wasn't, some of the best work ever done is being done today, just as some pretty mediocre stuff was done in Chippendales day. And the old timers did sharpen to levels as fine as we do now. There have been all kinds of fine quarried stone and powdered abrasives available for centuties. The modern synthetic alternatives are substitutes for stones that are no longer quarried, because of expense, or to try and speed up the process, as the old timers methods could also be slow and tedious.

I have never shown hostility to convex bevel sharpening, either, though if someone asks why I dont like it, I wil tell them. ( I have in the past, I wont again here) but that is not the same as being hostile to it. Trust me, if anyone comes up with a more expedient method that achieves the same level of sharpness I require, I would be all over it. But they haven't, there is always a trade off. This is all I try to point out. Another myth is that waterstones are soft (not your contention) they are not, the abrasive is very hard, otherwise it would not abrade hardened steel. But the trade off here is that the abrasive is used up more quicky to effect a very fast rate of sharpening. Faster than oilstones by a long way for equivalent grits. so it is a choice, faster sharpening, friable stones or stop sharpening at a coarser grit and dont quite get the finest edge. This is the fact of the matter and we have to make our trade off. There are too many myths on these fora.

Mike.

 

[Reggie]

Isn't the thing with waterstones the fact that they're soft and produce a slurry which is akin to the pastes people end up using? I'm not really sold on any one method right now, since we've had our other discussions on sharpening techniques, I don't do enough sharpening for it to make a difference in the method I use, I chose a honing guide to give me a reference to start from, luckily I have spare chisels of each size so I can try the hand method on those and compare.

 

[MIGNAL]

Well put it this way. You wouldn't want to hone a card scraper on one, not in a straight up/down manner anyway. You would easily put a serious groove in it, irrespective of the waterstone grit.