Mock ye not !!

[Jacob]

...... but the result you are getting isn't the same, you must realise this when you make a statement. It is like saying you have the faster car, when you own a very respectable BMW. But you are making the statement to a forum of Ferrari owners. ....

It's more like saying I want to get from A to B easily, reliably, cheaply and efficiently. This isn't a prime concern of Ferrari owners, nor even of respectable BMW owners.
The point is Mike we are getting there, however loudly you tell us our vehicles are rubbish!

 

[Corneel]

Easy lads, easy! It's just about stones you know....

Waterstones come in all kinds of flavors. From very soft (like the King's) to very hard (like the Shaptons). Faster or slower, messier or not, soakers or spritzers, cheap or expensive. There is a taste for everyone. Of course, each and every choice has its disadvantages too. In the end, choosing a sharpening system is about choosing a system which annoys you the least. You might even start to enjoy it after a while. And if that system is oilstones, well, so be it :lol: .

And I can get a respectable edge on a 1000 grit waterstone too, suitable for a lot of woodworking tasks. Point is, it's not much work to change to a finer stone and polish the edge and the back a bit, to get a much finer edge. So little work in fact, that it doesn't make sence not to do it.

 

[Jacob]

..........Another myth is that waterstones are soft (not your contention) they are not, the abrasive is very hard, otherwise it would not abrade hardened steel. But the trade off here is that the abrasive is used up more quicky to effect a very fast rate of sharpening. Faster than oilstones by a long way for equivalent grits. so it is a choice, faster sharpening, friable stones or stop sharpening at a coarser grit and dont quite get the finest edge. This is the fact of the matter and we have to make our trade off. There are too many myths on these fora.

Mike.

OK not "soft" but "friable". :lol: Same difference.
Oil stones are not so friable which means they can be used more heavily and hence faster than water stones.
If you fiddle about cautiously with an oil stone, water stone fashion - with a jig etc, it will be slow.
If you put a bit of effort into it (not possible with a jig) it will be fast.
I think this is the crucial detail which the crazy sharpeners have missed.

Why would one "stop sharpening at a coarser grit and dont quite get the finest edge"? You can go as fine as you like with oil stones.

PS Deiter Schmidt thinks they are soft. Maybe you should drop them a line woodbrains and correct them.

 

[bugbear]

Waterstones come in all kinds of flavors. From very soft (like the King's) to very hard (like the Shaptons). Faster or slower, messier or not, soakers or spritzers, cheap or expensive. There is a taste for everyone. Of course, each and every choice has its disadvantages too. In the end, choosing a sharpening system is about choosing a system which annoys you the least. You might even start to enjoy it after a while. And if that system is oilstones, well, so be it :lol: .

Oilstones also come in all kinds of flavour (yum!);

http://www.taths.org.uk/special-publications.htm

"Natural 19th and Early 20th Century Sharpening Stones and Hones" by Brian Read and Doug Morgan

lists some of them. Despite Jacob's narrow experience (which conflates "oilstone" with "Norton India Fine") many oilstones (especialy the slate types) are very soft, and care has to be taken not to dig in a blade corner, or catch the whole edge when freehanding. The Synthetic and Arkansas stones are the only ones that are essentially immune to this.

BugBear

 

[Cottonwood]

LOL Mike if you want to qoute, do it correctly. Please dont mis quote what I said
I did not say
'A better quality of work was done before carborundum was invented' That is your comment not mine
What I did say was
"Joiners and cabinetmakers managed to get decent edges for doing mortices and dovetails etc long before carbundurum was developed, they managed to do "a better class of work" without a tormek or a waterstone...! " (LOL ironically, both man made stones...)
-Meaning, their non-access to "advanced" modern tool sharpening parephanalia didnt prevent them from creating "a better class of work".

 

[Jacob]

Waterstones come in all kinds of flavors. From very soft (like the King's) to very hard (like the Shaptons). Faster or slower, messier or not, soakers or spritzers, cheap or expensive. There is a taste for everyone. Of course, each and every choice has its disadvantages too. In the end, choosing a sharpening system is about choosing a system which annoys you the least. You might even start to enjoy it after a while. And if that system is oilstones, well, so be it :lol: .

Oilstones also come in all kinds of flavour (yum!);

http://www.taths.org.uk/special-publications.htm

"Natural 19th and Early 20th Century Sharpening Stones and Hones" by Brian Read and Doug Morgan

lists some of them. Despite Jacob's narrow experience (which conflates "oilstone" with "Norton India Fine") many oilstones (especialy the slate types) are very soft, and care has to be taken not to dig in a blade corner, or catch the whole edge when freehanding. The Synthetic and Arkansas stones are the only ones that are essentially immune to this.

BugBear

And "the Synthetic and Arkansas stones are the only ones" (just about) in common use - no doubt for the very reason that they "are essentially immune" etc. etc. they can be used energetically and as a consequence are highly effective.

 

[bugbear]

Waterstones come in all kinds of flavors. From very soft (like the King's) to very hard (like the Shaptons). Faster or slower, messier or not, soakers or spritzers, cheap or expensive. There is a taste for everyone. Of course, each and every choice has its disadvantages too. In the end, choosing a sharpening system is about choosing a system which annoys you the least. You might even start to enjoy it after a while. And if that system is oilstones, well, so be it :lol: .

Oilstones also come in all kinds of flavour (yum!);

http://www.taths.org.uk/special-publications.htm

"Natural 19th and Early 20th Century Sharpening Stones and Hones" by Brian Read and Doug Morgan

lists some of them. Despite Jacob's narrow experience (which conflates "oilstone" with "Norton India Fine") many oilstones (especialy the slate types) are very soft, and care has to be taken not to dig in a blade corner, or catch the whole edge when freehanding. The Synthetic and Arkansas stones are the only ones that are essentially immune to this.

BugBear

And "the Synthetic and Arkansas stones are the only ones" (just about) in common use - no doubt for the very reason that they "are essentially immune" etc. etc. they can be used energetically and as a consequence are highly effective.

Indeed. I pointed out this development earlier in the thread.

BugBear

 

[Corneel]

Before anyone would get the idea that one can't use a waterstone freehand and energetically, let me add that you can. Even the King ones. You have to be a bit more carefull not to dig in a corner, but even that is not the end of the world, just annoying when it happens.
The modern ceramic ones like Sigma, Bester, Naniwa chosera, Shapton are a lot harder, more dish resistance, without loosing their efficiency. I have Sigma and Bester which are really fine stones. My polishing stone is a Naniwa Superstone, which is a bit more delicate, but nothing to get really worried about. And I do use them freehand with an energetic motion pattern.

If you don't like a watery mess, then maybe oilstones are more your cup of tea. If you don't like an oily mess either, then you could have a look at diamond plates.

 

[Jacob]

Before anyone would get the idea that one can't use a waterstone freehand and energetically, let me add that you can. Even the King ones. You have to be a bit more carefull not to dig in a corner, but even that is not the end of the world, just annoying when it happens.
The modern ceramic ones like Sigma, Bester, Naniwa chosera, Shapton are a lot harder, more dish resistance, without loosing their efficiency. I have Sigma and Bester which are really fine stones. My polishing stone is a Naniwa Superstone, which is a bit more delicate, but nothing to get really worried about. And I do use them freehand with an energetic motion pattern.

If you don't like a watery mess, then maybe oilstones are more your cup of tea. If you don't like an oily mess either, then you could have a look at diamond plates.

OK so you can use some water stones energetically. Still not too impressed!
Oily mess about the same on diamond or stone, except you can easily clean an oil stone with a rare earth magnet (whilst flooded with oil) which also saves oil.

 

[Corneel]

No you can use all waterstones energetically. The softer ones just have a slightly longer learning curve to prevent digging in. Nothing to be afraid off.

 

[MIGNAL]

Only 500 Euros for a 30,000 G :shock: Shapton. :shock:
I thought 50 Euros for a King was a bit expensive. I think I'll try slate next.

 

[G S Haydon]

Slate worked for me. A piece from a Brazilian slate worktop did a great job.

 

[Corneel]

Try to find a really good black Arkansas....

An alternative for that overpriced piece of Shapton dust is a Sigma power 13000. Gets your tools crazy sharp too at 60 pound.

 

[MIGNAL]

I doubt that there is very much to be gained past 8,000 and stropping. At least that combination has served me well enough for the last 15 years or so but my 8,000 king is fast becoming a thin stone. I do have some sort of white Arkansas to fall back on though. Slate intrigues me because it's fairly local and they aren't expensive. Some of them are sold with a slurry stone.

 

[G S Haydon]

This is how I sourced my slate

 

[Jacob]

That's all very well but what about the grit sizes? We want microns!

It's gone quiet on the sharpening/polishing front.
Too quiet? :shock:
Maybe the opposition have paused for thought and are considering that we may have something.
In fact - maybe we know something which they don't know? 8)
Not sure why DTs feature so much; a fairly undemanding run of the mill operation. - I can think of other things where you might actually need an extra degree of sharpness; fine carving, lettering, etc. And shaving of course, not to mention splitting hairs.

PS Tilgear do Arkansas stone from these people I seem to recall http://www.hallsharpstones.com/

 

[G S Haydon]

This slate is quite hard and brings a more refined edge. Beyond that I simply don't know what grit it is or to be compared with. I have been a little naughty though. I ordered a very cheap honing guide to have a go with next time I have an edge that needs a hone.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

:shock: :shock: :shock: A honing guide?! Wash your mouth out with soapy water!

 

[G S Haydon]

:lol: :lol: :lol: You know what, I thought why not. It's been so long since I used one. Who knows, perhaps I might like it :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Cottonwood]

Do you use the lump hammer to flatten your slate?