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Hello,

WIP at the moment is a black walnut blanket chest. Nothing too ornery, timber wise, so nothing special about the plane setup, other than the usual very sharp blade, fine mouth and finely set cap iron. Unfortunately, this is on hold for the moment as I am moving into my home workshop presently, which is a great upheaval. Perhaps I will post some images when things get settled down a bit. I have to make a new bench first, the shed is smaller than my pervious workshop, so I need storage in the bench for as many tools as I can manage. Might post images of the workshop, too, when things are more set up, everything is in heaps on the floor and every other horizontal surface at the minute.

Once you know what honing angles, other than the basic one, will do, it enables us to dispense with power sanders. This in general is good thing, as we are hand tool users here, but especially in a small shed. If there is too much perceived effort in having tools with special sharpening requirements, think about the time ultimately saved by not having to resot to belt sanders etc. not to mention dust. Sanders are not efficient at removing wood compared to planes; think about how much sanding dust would make up the volume of wood in one shaving, that takes fractions of seconds to produce.

Jacob, I did mention that your raison d'être seems to be contradicting everything I say, these days. Please do not find it necessary to do so, especially if it involves posting images in poor taste. What I do is usually not badly conceived, though perhaps not for you. This is fine, I'm not trying to covert anyone to anything, but if someone asks why I do a thing, I will tell them. The things I do yield positive perceivable results. For those who want to try what I do, they may find something they can use, or they may find it is not for them. But we are all trying to learn and try new things.

Mike.
 
may i ask wen you have done your thing with sharpening wether with a jig or a waltz or hand rubbed do you then go that extra
1/8th and strop your edge
i do mine on a piece of leather glued to a flat board the moisten leather with a little wd40 then tormek honing paste now that is an edge to shave with or even just the tormek honing paste on a piece of mdf it does a good job and i would rather keep my tools sharp as possible for as long as possible
 
Hello,

Tormek paste is made up of an abrasive with mixture of particle sizes, but if memory serves, has an effective size of about 3 microns. I will check on this fact, but it is about the sort of thing. The 8000 grit waterstone has a particle size of less than half this, so it would be a backward step to use a strop for me. When I used oilstones, I did strop. The finest oilstones were about 9 micron, so stropping with tormek paste would show a benefit, though I used chrome oxide, about 0.5 micron. What you have to take into account is, you must go to a fine enough grit on the stones before stropping. The particle size on stropping paste will not remove much metal, so you must get to Hard Arkasas sort of fineness of stones for a strop to be of any use. Also, stropping is unlikely to 'refresh' an edge on its own. As it removes so little material, it will not get past the wear bevel on the flat side of he blade, and therefore It will not get the tool back to sharp. I always do some work on the finest stone and then strop to quickly get back an edge in a little and often regime. I like waterstones as they effectively cut quicker and miss out the strop stage, but I did use oilstones for 30 years, and if this is what you have and are happy, work very well as I describe.

Mike.
 
Jacob, I did mention that your raison d'être seems to be contradicting everything I say, these days.
Honest it's nothing personal - we just have different views about a lot of things! I do feel that the meticulous, precision laboratory, tool centred approach is a very long way from mainstream woodwork. At the other end of the spectrum is greenwood working with axe and adze, which is not "inferior" - just a different approach. And there is a lot in between.

IMHO stropping isn't an additional way to hone an edge but is about polishing the bevel and the face (near the edge). This helps shavings slip past more easily and also leave a cleaner cut when e.g. carving with a tool finish. It will remove some metal of course so there is a tiny element of sharpening involved. It's similar to applying candle wax to a plane sole or saw blade - doesn't directly sharpen at all, but miraculously improves cutting performance.
 
Jacob":30ul5uuc said:
IMHO stropping isn't an additional way to hone an edge but is about polishing the bevel and the face immediately behind.

Your distinction is a false one; coarse grinding through honing to polishing is a continuum.

Carvers view stropping as a major sharpening method - indeed, a chisel might be used for weeks without seeing a stone, stropping regularly.

Stropping (with a substrate of just the right density) is very good for non-straight edges, as you get a degree of comformance, which reduces the manouvres needed to work the entire edge.

BugBear
 
Obviously you could sharpen indefinitely by stropping "with a suitable substrate" but stone is the main thing.
Good demo here http://www.finewoodworking.com/how-to/v ... tools.aspx
Freehand, slightly rounded bevel, no problem with "manouevres" (so many if these problems are imaginary!).
His main concern (after sharpening) is the finish on the workpiece.
Much the same is done with straight edge tools
 
bugbear":7zfiipmt said:
Jacob":7zfiipmt said:
IMHO stropping isn't an additional way to hone an edge but is about polishing the bevel and the face immediately behind.

Your distinction is a false one; coarse grinding through honing to polishing is a continuum.


BugBear


Hello,

Yes, I have to agree with Bugbear. At some point, the abrasives become so small, that the metal removal is percived to be polishing, but it is just tiny scratches, the same as previous honing grits, just fine enough to make the metal shine. Some stones are fine enough to get the same result and negate the need for stropping. However, going to a strop, or a very fine stone from too coarse a previous one, may make the edge shinier, but not remove the rough scratches, from the coarser stone. I won't say there won't be some perceived benefit doing this, BUT the coarse grinding scratches are still there, so the edge is not really any sharper than if the strop were omitted. We have just polished the peaks of deep scratches. It would be better not to bother with the strop and just go for a finer stone as the last stage. Of course you could gild the lily an then strop too. It is just like sand papering really, you have to go through all the grits. No one would think it a good idea to jump from P80 to P 340 without going to P 120,180,220 first.

Mike.

PS it may be worth starting a new thread for this topic, it has gone way off the original question, and may get more responses if it is a fresh thread.
 
Jacob":jb573w5o said:
Obviously you could sharpen indefinitely by stropping "with a suitable substrate" but stone is the main thing.

Read a little on traditional carving.

BugBear
 
Polishing the peaks of deep scratches actually does work in reducing friction. It may not be desirable for a tool finish (e.g. carver) but is helpful otherwise.

No one would think it a good idea to jump from P80 to P 340 without going to P 120,180,220 first.
If reducing friction is the issue then it is a good idea. It may leave a scratchy looking surface but the bits in contact with the wood are smooth. An extreme example would be a corrugated plane sole. We've been here before in another thread - must have a look for it.
If frinstance you flatten a plane sole on 80 grit you can jump straight to 400 to reduce friction. If you don't believe me then try it yourself.
Armchair theorising is all very well but there is a real world out there.
The need for a mirror finish is one of the delusions due to theorising without practice, and is a complete waste of time (unless you want to see your face on your chisel!)
 
Jacob":r2vfwq4l said:
The need for a mirror finish is one of the delusions due to theorising without practice, and is a complete waste of time (unless you want to see your face on your chisel!)

The reverse, (large flat surface) of my edge tools such as chisels, planes, spokeshaves and so on are lapped flat and then polished through refining stages to a mirror finish.

-- Paul Sellers

BugBear
 
Hello,

Jacob, You are right, a corrugated plane is an extreme example of what I am saying. No one wants that for a final finish, though. Reducing friction is not going to make the scratches any shallower. A truly sharp edge will have the finest scratch pattern and leave the finest surface. I do no theorise from my arm chair, this is all from experience and experimentation ovr decades.

Mike.
 
woodbrains":3aj828ei said:
Hello,

Jacob, You are right, a corrugated plane is an extreme example of what I am saying. No one wants that for a final finish, though. Reducing friction is not going to make the scratches any shallower. A truly sharp edge will have the finest scratch pattern and leave the finest surface. I do no theorise from my arm chair, this is all from experience and experimentation ovr decades.

Mike.
The corrugations on a plane sole do not leave corresponding ridges on the workpiece. Explain!
 
Jacob":27nmml2f said:
woodbrains":27nmml2f said:
Hello,

Jacob, You are right, a corrugated plane is an extreme example of what I am saying. No one wants that for a final finish, though. Reducing friction is not going to make the scratches any shallower. A truly sharp edge will have the finest scratch pattern and leave the finest surface. I do no theorise from my arm chair, this is all from experience and experimentation ovr decades.

Mike.
The corrugations on a plane sole do not leave corresponding ridges on the workpiece. Explain!

The sole of a plane isn't cutting - obvious...

BugBear
 
bugbear":2v4m0815 said:
Jacob":2v4m0815 said:
woodbrains":2v4m0815 said:
Hello,

Jacob, You are right, a corrugated plane is an extreme example of what I am saying. No one wants that for a final finish, though. Reducing friction is not going to make the scratches any shallower. A truly sharp edge will have the finest scratch pattern and leave the finest surface. I do no theorise from my arm chair, this is all from experience and experimentation ovr decades.

Mike.
The corrugations on a plane sole do not leave corresponding ridges on the workpiece. Explain!

The sole of a plane isn't cutting - obvious...

BugBear
Neither is the bevel or the face of a chisel or plane edge.
 
Jacob":19j506cz said:
Neither is the bevel or the face of a chisel or plane edge.

Scratches opposite the bevel cause teeth to form in the edge; Take a look at a toothing plane iron.

bowplane1b.JPG


Simple, real, no armchairs harmed in the making of this post.

BugBear
 
bugbear":3oq7mpoe said:
Jacob":3oq7mpoe said:
Neither is the bevel or the face of a chisel or plane edge.

Scratches opposite the bevel cause teeth to form in the edge; Take a look at a toothing plane iron.

BugBear
Only if they reach the edge itself - take a look at a toothing plane iron.
 
Jacob":2z0rhhxv said:
bugbear":2z0rhhxv said:
Jacob":2z0rhhxv said:
Neither is the bevel or the face of a chisel or plane edge.

Scratches opposite the bevel cause teeth to form in the edge; Take a look at a toothing plane iron.

BugBear
Only if they reach the edge itself - take a look at a toothing plane iron.

Correct. Not sure what your general argument is, but you've got the narrow "scratches opposite the bevel cause teeth" concept at last.

BugBear
 
If we are talking about the real world most of the carvers that I am currently learning from consider stropping to be the most important part of sharpening not for letting things slip past but for the ultimate edge.

I have found what others have said to be true in that I can bring my carving chisels and knives back to sharpness without wasting time on a stone. My stones get used when the bevel gets to big and the correct angle needs to be properly established. A few minutes free hand every 10 or so strop sessions.
 
James C":1bi9nsor said:
If we are talking about the real world most of the carvers that I am currently learning from consider stropping to be the most important part of sharpening not for letting things slip past but for the ultimate edge.

Hello,

Yes, stropping is sharpening, not just for reducing friction on a coarse edge.

However, there is a subtle but important difference between carving tools and plane irons/bench chisels. Carving chisels are double beveled, to some extent, so stropping of both meeting planes takes place: a regular strop on the bevel and a slip strop on the inside bevel. This will not work on planes unless you want a back bevel and is to be avoided at all costs on chisels. This is why I say you must always stone these, to remove the wear bevel on the back. Stropping then, if you want to, will take place on the bevel side only.

Mike.
 
woodbrains":1azm7kme said:
....
However, there is a subtle but important difference between carving tools and plane irons/bench chisels. Carving chisels are double beveled, to some extent, so stropping of both meeting planes takes place: a regular strop on the bevel and a slip strop on the inside bevel. This will not work on planes unless you want a back bevel and is to be avoided at all costs on chisels. ..
Why? What's the difference?
 
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