Meaningful debate

[Baldhead]

I've just watched a local TV production entitled, 'Have benefit sanctions worked?' Could we manage to have an adult discussion amongst ourselves?

Stew

 

[Jacob]

Have they worked? What were they supposed to do anyway?
As far as I can see they were just an unpleasant extension of the blame culture virus where societies problems are blamed on those at the bottom of the heap, who in reality are the principle victims of economic downturns and definitely not the causes.
We need an adult discussion to be held by politicians, the media and the people with power, and a lot less kicking of the underdogs.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

"those at the bottom of the heap, who in reality are the principle victims of economic downturns" Not always.
Many if not most of them in this area are there because it pays them and suits them. We are overrun with Poles (and good luck to them) doing jobs that our idle would lose money taking.

 

[Jacob]

"those at the bottom of the heap, who in reality are the principle victims of economic downturns" Not always.
Many if not most of them in this area are there because it pays them and suits them.

Doubtful. It doesn't make sense. Nobody chooses benefits if there is an option of work - in fact a large chunk of the benefits bill goes to people actually in work but underpaid, insecure and renting at inflated prices. Landlords and low pay employers get the benefit (literally) - our taxes subsidise low pay and high rents.

 

[clk230]

"those at the bottom of the heap, who in reality are the principle victims of economic downturns" Not always.
Many if not most of them in this area are there because it pays them and suits them. We are overrun with Poles (and good luck to them) doing jobs that our idle would lose money taking.

The 'poles' in our area & london are happy to work for low pay as they are also happy to share a house or even a bed and send any spare money back home most are here short term , you can't want/have decent standards of living and low pay

 

[Jacob]

"those at the bottom of the heap, who in reality are the principle victims of economic downturns" Not always.
Many if not most of them in this area are there because it pays them and suits them. We are overrun with Poles (and good luck to them) doing jobs that our idle would lose money taking.

The 'poles' in our area & london are happy to work for low pay as they are also happy to share a house or even a bed and send any spare money back home most are here short term , you can't want/have decent standards of living and low pay

There are people working and having to sleep rough. You can do it for a short spell if you are young and fit but it's unsustainable.

 

[clk230]

Thats it its ok short term , but as you say unsustainable , the problem in deprived areas is the children grow up seeing parents , relatives , neighbours not working and they loose HOPE its a sad world when youngsters have no motivation .

 

[Phil Pascoe]

"Nobody chooses benefits if there is an option of work"
I ran a shop on a council estate. I also had another job. I had customers who were having their rent and council tax paid, and were still picking up more on benefits than I was earning. Why would they work by choice?

 

[clk230]

to be honest benefits will only increase as the population increases where are the jobs going to come from unless the government build factories and produce something that we currently import .

 

[Jacob]

"Nobody chooses benefits if there is an option of work"
I ran a shop on a council estate. I also had another job. I had customers who were having their rent and council tax paid, and were still picking up more on benefits than I was earning. Why would they work by choice?

It sounds as though you were entitled to benefits too.
But the answer to your question very likely would be "the benefits trap". The whole set up is badly run and designed to intimidate and harass the punters - the transition from benefits to work is fraught with obstacles, especially if the work is low paid and/or insecure. Getting a crap job can lead towards eviction when they suddenly find they can't afford the rent etc.

 

[Jacob]

to be honest benefits will only increase as the population increases where are the jobs going to come from unless the government build factories and produce something that we currently import .

Well yes. Unemployment figures don't go up because of life style choices - they go up because there aren't enough jobs. Tax and spend creates jobs - and the benefits to society of whatever it is those jobs produce.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

No, Jacob - I wasn't entitled to anything, I was working and not in a council house.

 

[Jacob]

No, Jacob - I wasn't entitled to anything, I was working and not in a council house.

Would you rather have swapped places/circumstances with any of them?

 

[Phil Pascoe]

No. But I'd have been richer.

 

[Jacob]

No. But I'd have been richer.

Now? Do you think they would be better off than you now?

 

[monkeybiter]

Nobody chooses benefits if there is an option of work

If you believe that [I know you often don't] then you need to get off your bike and mix with a wider spectrum of people. There are plenty of young folk who choose the appeal of a low income for bugger-all. That's not speculation or hearsay, I've met plenty and I know it to be fact.

 

[finneyb]

A good discussion - congratulations !!!

My 2p worth
1. The more I see parental influence is the key to a lot of success ie providing opportunity either by education or work experience or just the values of working to pay your way. Poor parenting will lead to generations of unemployable people, as Blair said we can spot the problem children before they are born. Those in the care system must find it particularly difficult.

2. I am sure it makes financial sense for some people to be on benefits rather than working. I would do the calculation and make my decision as I am sure most of those people do. The answer is to change the system. I avoid taxation so far as is legal so why should I expect them to do anything less with the benefit system?

3. Tax credits and even housing benefit should be phased out quickly. Tax credits subsidise low paying employers and housing benefits drive up the property rents market. Phase out the housing benefit and rents would have to reduce and thereby property prices would settle.

Brian

 

[Jacob]

Nobody chooses benefits if there is an option of work

If you believe that [I know you often don't] then you need to get off your bike and mix with a wider spectrum of people. There are plenty of young folk who choose the appeal of a low income for bugger-all. That's not speculation or hearsay, I've met plenty and I know it to be fact.

I know plenty too - mostly in between various things, school/jobs etc. I also know that anyone who ends up benefit dependant in the long term will lead miserable lives. It's not a life style choice. You wouldn't chose it would you?

.........
3. Tax credits and even housing benefit should be phased out quickly. Tax credits subsidise low paying employers and housing benefits drive up the property rents market. Phase out the housing benefit and rents would have to reduce and thereby property prices would settle.

Brian

OK but you'd have to give security of tenure and make rent collecting a separate issue. It's appalling how people are evicted - the landlords benefit but we the taxpayers bear the burden - and the other consequences of peoples' disrupted lives. Housing is a basic human need.

NB in conversations like this you have to remember that the bulk of benefits goes to people in low paid work - not skivers. Wages are too low and jobs too insecure.
And benefit fraud is chicken feed compared to tax evasion/avoidance semi legal fraud. There are many bigger issues than benefits!!

 

[finneyb]

..... Housing is a basic human need.

Agreed. AND better housing reduces the burden on the NHS in the form of lower ill-health and ability to be cared for at home, the cheapest way and in a lot of cases a personal preference.

Brian

 

[monkeybiter]

It's not a life style choice. You wouldn't chose it would you?

Irrelevant what I'd choose; assuming everyone has the same aspirations, motivations or even personal morals as ones-self seems either ignorant or arrogant.

Housing is a basic human need!

As an ex-landlord I'd never considered that, and it's a very good point. Food for more thought.