Marples firmer chisels

[Florin]

Greetings to all of you!
I bought this chisels while ago and I was looking for more information. They look like the usual ship chisels only they are thicker.At least that what I think. I'm not sure if is so or I didn't search properly.

Anyone know where to find more about it, please?
Many thanks,
Florin

 

[Adam W.]

Lovely chisels they are too.

Have a look in Salamans' book on woodworking tools, that will tell you al you need to know.

or

Google "Marples catalogue" and all will be revealed.

Spoiler

Catalogues – William Marples and Sons, Ltd.

 

[D_W]

They're referred to as millwrights chisels here. Like longer heavier firmers.

 

[Jacob]

Lovely chisels they are too.

Have a look in Salamans' book on woodworking tools, that will tell you al you need to know.

or

Google "Marples catalogue" and all will be revealed.

Spoiler

Catalogues – William Marples and Sons, Ltd.

Interesting pages of mortice chisels. Mortice Chisels – William Marples and Sons, Ltd.
What have become known as the OBM or "oval bolster mortice" chisel they list as "Best".
They go from 1/8" to 1".
They'd be a pipper buggler to use at 1" so probably not common which is presumably why they don't seem to appear on Ebay at all. 5/8" has been seen but 1/2"most common by far.

 

[D_W]

I'm sure if you look for older price lists, you'll find millwright chisels on them. Most of the hits for marples show paring chisels and firmers, but a lot of later bigger chisels are socket types.

If you want to confirm what they are, try looking for older price lists - there may not be pictures, but there should be a description of the chisels' lengths.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Google register or registered pattern chisels.

 

[D_W]

registered chisels are thinner than millwright chisels. It does look like one in that set at least is a size duplicate and thinner.

millwright chisels are like a registered chisel with an extra 1/8th of thickness. they are the same here in the US, which makes it hard to figure out how to use them.

Which also may be a clue as to why they're not offered.

I just checked the 1895 m. wards catalog in the US where most stuff will be paralleled in socket. They're a different thing than timber framing chisels and different than firmers. Millwright in socket types here are listed as a 10" chisel in between the firmers, patternmaker's chisels and above them, timber framers.

10 inches in socket chisels is more like 8-9" tang chisels as the socket is part of the handle length.

In parers, the same is true - the chisel length is an inch or two longer, but the handles are shorter and the overall length is about the same.

ten years ago, someone gave me three socket millwright chisels - they look like a long mortise chisel, but not as heavy as a oval bolstered chisel. I've never figured out a good use for them - they're too long and way too heavy for paring.

 

[mikej460]

The fact that these old chisels still have plenty of metal on them points to them being made for very bespoke work as stated above. I bet @D_W could transform them into more usable bevel chisels!

 

[Jacob]

The fact that these old chisels still have plenty of metal on them points to them being made for very bespoke work as stated above.

Pattern makers perhaps? Stair makers also could use long firmers for those long housings? Also for long mortices for metal work, coach/ship/mill wrights/builders etc - long hole bored through and then squared up. A vast amount of semi industrial stuff was built from wood/metal combined.

.....could transform them into more usable bevel chisels!

less usable, firmers are the most useful general purpose chisel.

 

[D_W]

The fact that these old chisels still have plenty of metal on them points to them being made for very bespoke work as stated above. I bet @D_W could transform them into more usable bevel chisels!

hah!!

You're right, I could turn them into paring chisels, but their handles would look a bit odd. It might take a solid half hour to belt grind one.

I still have my millwright chisels, but I couldn't for the life of me say why i do. I had timber framing chisels in the past and after actually using them to cut large mortises in things that could be mortised with a shorter chisel, sold them immediately.

While I've known that these were called millwright chisels for a long time, I have to admit I don't know what a millwright is because I've never met one and the trade unions here - at least locally - don't include millwrights.

Wikipedia says, paraphrased, someone who assembles, installs, uninstalls and repairs machinery in factories, plants or on construction sites. Maybe steel construction at industrial sites sort of eliminated this.

 

[mikej460]

hah!!

You're right, I could turn them into paring chisels, but their handles would look a bit odd. It might take a solid half hour to belt grind one.

I still have my millwright chisels, but I couldn't for the life of me say why i do. I had timber framing chisels in the past and after actually using them to cut large mortises in things that could be mortised with a shorter chisel, sold them immediately.

While I've known that these were called millwright chisels for a long time, I have to admit I don't know what a millwright is because I've never met one and the trade unions here - at least locally - don't include millwrights.

Wikipedia says, paraphrased, someone who assembles, installs, uninstalls and repairs machinery in factories, plants or on construction sites. Maybe steel construction at industrial sites sort of eliminated this.

A millright would have made and maintained all the wooden cogs, axles etc in a corn mill (water or wind).

 

[Jacob]

Interesting pages of mortice chisels. Mortice Chisels – William Marples and Sons, Ltd.
What have become known as the OBM or "oval bolster mortice" chisel they list as "Best".
They go from 1/8" to 1".
They'd be a pipper buggler to use at 1" so probably not common which is presumably why they don't seem to appear on Ebay at all. 5/8" has been seen but 1/2"most common by far.

Also the "Best" OBM beech handles are the most expensive size for size. They were the important "production" mode chisels of the day and a morticer probably developed a strong right arm and a funny walk after doing it non stop 10 hours a day!
Also "morticing machine" blade there on the left - for hand operated machine not power, and would mimic the normal vertical action of the hand held mortice chisel - which probably gave them the idea for the lever operated machine.
I'm still mystified about the 1/8" OBM chisels which were obviously designed for hard work. Who needs an 1/8" slot in a hurry?
My guess is for two sides of bigger mortices e.g. letter box slot, sides cut first along the grain and the ends then being cut with firmers - the middle dropping out as a block.

 

[Florin]

Thank you all for the enlightenment . Never heard before about millwright chisels . I`m fascinated by the old tools. May granddad was a coach maker . A good one but I was to little to pay attention to what he was doing . The most I was denting his axes.

Lovely chisels they are too.

Have a look in Salamans' book on woodworking tools, that will tell you al you need to know.

or

Google "Marples catalogue" and all will be revealed.

Spoiler

Catalogues – William Marples and Sons, Ltd.

I will get one of the Salamans`s book. I`m going down the slope , so why not?

A millright would have made and maintained all the wooden cogs, axles etc in a corn mill (water or wind).

Thank you . Now I know who was using such chisels.

 

[Adam W.]

Your proximity to the Thames and Tilbury docks may give a clue to what the original owner did as a trade, if the chisels come from nearby.

 

[Jacob]

.... My granddad was a coach maker ......

Coach making/building was massive. We had Midland railway's Derby Carriage & Wagon works locally, a big employer of skilled woodworkers. Easy to forget that railway coaches and goods wagons used lots of wood until quite recently.

 

[D_W]

Also the "Best" OBM beech handles are the most expensive size for size. They were the important "production" mode chisels of the day and a morticer probably developed a strong right arm and a funny walk after doing it non stop 10 hours a day!
Also "morticing machine" blade there on the left - for hand operated machine not power, and would mimic the normal vertical action of the hand held mortice chisel - which probably gave them the idea for the lever operated machine.
I'm still mystified about the 1/8" OBM chisels which were obviously designed for hard work. Who needs an 1/8" slot in a hurry?
My guess is for two sides of bigger mortices e.g. letter box slot, sides cut first along the grain and the ends then being cut with firmers - the middle dropping out as a block.

how else would you cut a stopped 1/8th inch deep slot before milling machines and table saws or whatever else?

They could've been used for attachment of plate steel or iron.

OBM chisels are used differently. The tall cross section makes them break a far bigger chunk of wood off in a cut if they're used properly bevel down. It takes only one mortise to see that this is the case, and then go back and try the same thing with another chisel that doesn't rotate as far. Sink the chisel, lift it slightly so the tip doesn't break off and rotate and you can remove big squares of wood instead of progressive strips of it. I wouldn't be surprised if their handles were large to prevent carpal tunnel and to make it easier to push them hard to break a big chip.

 

[mikej460]

Coach making/building was massive. We had Midland railway's Derby Carriage & Wagon works locally, a big employer of skilled woodworkers. Easy to forget that railway coaches and goods wagons used lots of wood until quite recently.

Yes these were called Wheelrights, similar job only they made wooden wheels. Given what @Adam says this could be a wheelrigjt set.

 

[Jacob]

Yes these were called Wheelrights, similar job only they made wooden wheels. Given what @Adam says this could be a wheelrigjt set.

Railway Carriage and Wagon industry didn't involve wooden wheels as far as I know!
But involved a whole range of woodwork from structural siding of goods wagons to fine finishing in passenger coaches. They use to label the exotic veneers in some coaches - I remember it from when I was a kid on our once a year trip to the seaside
Wheelwright's used a "bruzz" - a long V gouge of various angles, to take out corners of drilled holes e.g. for spokes. No doubt millwrights used them too - not many tools would be for just one trade.

 

[D_W]

Yes these were called Wheelrights, similar job only they made wooden wheels. Given what @Adam says this could be a wheelrigjt set.

Wheelwright's/coach chisels are sold as a separate item - not as long and not as heavy.

The only other chisels as heavy in cross section (not OVBs) were listings for "strong firmers". There are a few duplicate listings of chisels with a "strong" version.

 

[D_W]

I'll see if I can find a marples price list with all of them. I think chisels that are in the 8-9" long below the bolster with this kind of weight are uncommon. I've never seen a tanged version, just the socket millwright types in the US.

Not that I'd see these in the US, but I've done my share of raiding your ebay in the UK and helping the tools find a home where they don't have to speak and wright so well.