Marking knives

[Student]

As before, it is with some trepidation that I set foot on this area of the forum. Although I have been doing various projects using machinery over the years, it’s only recently that I have decided to try getting results using hand tools. As such, I’ve upgraded from just an old Stanley No. 4, tuned as best I can, to a new WoodRiver No. 5 and have been very pleased with the results. I’ve also laid my hands on a Veritas dovetail saw, very nice, as well as some Narex chisels, based on various recommendations. The chisels have been sharpened following the method using by Paul Sellers in his YouTube videos (I know that there will inevitably be some that have differing views to Paul but his method seemed to work for me).

Anyhow, the problem that I am coming up against is the use of knife walls when crosscutting. Paul’s, and others, videos show them using a combination or engineer’s square to mark across using a marking knife. The first cut is done gently and subsequent cuts more strongly. After that a chisel is used to chip out the initial wall before going on to use a chisel to deepen the wall.

My problem seems to be getting a sufficient depth of cut at the initial stages. In Paul’s videos, he seems to be able to cut down a couple of millimetres just using the marking knife. I’m finding this very difficult. I have a choice of marking knives. Years ago I used to use a Stanley knife. Then I was persuaded by something I read to buy a Japanese V-point marking knife

http://www.axminster.co.uk/japanese-vee ... ife-384008

which gets very good reviews but I find difficult to hold (my technique being wrong?)

My final purchase, based on something I read by our one and only Peter Sefton, was a scalpel and I bought a Swann Morton No. 3 handle with 10A blades. I find this, too, difficult to hold and press down hard; it always feels as if the blade is going to snap. Again, it might be my technique.

Part of the problem with my technique may be that when trying to cut hard, I am worried about the knife slipping and cutting my thumb which is holding the edge of the square.

Any advice on the correct way to go about using a marking knife would be gratefully received.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

To answer your question literally, you need a heftier blade, which will take more downforce, if you wish to score deeply. The Japanese kiridashi is a excellent blade. You purchase these as a blade or, as I have done below, insert them into a handle ..

Alternately, a good pocket knife can do the job. This is one I modified ..

My second answer is to focus on the problem, which is creating a knife wall. Knife walls are very helpful. There is a danger, however, in going off-vertical when you knife the line. Undercutting the deep line with a chisel will then throw the line off.

My recommendation is to stay with a fine line, as per the Stanley knife (which I like a lot), and create a very shallow knife line. Note that I do not use this for sawing. If you saw against a knife line, I find that the saw teeth, owing to the set, will wander over the line and you will saw into the shoulder. Better to saw slightly off the line, and then use the knife line for cleaning up with a chisel. That way you are assured of accurate results.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[AndyT]

I agree with Derek. I have an assortment of marking knives but the one I reach for most often is a Japanese one like his. I bought it from Axminster http://www.axminster.co.uk/japanese-kir ... fe-ax19805 and find it fits comfortably in my hand without a handle. Sometimes I hold it like a pen, sometimes in my fist.

You could always seek out the little Stanley knife Paul Sellers uses - it does seem to have a fine blade which is stiff enough. https://paulsellers.com/2012/06/the-sta ... ife-i-use/

 

[Jacob]

Scalpel much to fragile. This isn't brain surgery!
You just need the basic trad pattern. Better than any of the fancy alternatives. Big comfortable handle and short blade gives you plenty of power. Or if you haven't got one a 1" bevel edge chisel will do, especially if its old with a short blade.
The thinner the handle the less force you can apply - they need to be bulky.
You can cut the line and take out the fillet to make a v slot, with just the one knife. Like filleting a fish.

n.b. the term "marking" knife can be misunderstood - it's not for "marking" it's for cutting the few marks where a really sharp edge is essential. Otherwise use a sharp pencil

 

[DBT85]

I've only used it a couple of times so far but I just bought exact he same one Sellers uses and it feels good. No issue getting the cuts done. Cheap too.

My reasoning being, I'm very new to this and if Sellers can do what he does with one, who am I to argue at this stage?

 

[bugbear]

I agree with Derek. I have an assortment of marking knives but the one I reach for most often is a Japanese one like his. I bought it from Axminster http://www.axminster.co.uk/japanese-kir ... fe-ax19805 and find it fits comfortably in my hand without a handle. Sometimes I hold it like a pen, sometimes in my fist.

I've had one of those for around 15 years. It works well enough that I struggle to imagine a better one, and if a better one does exists, I certainly don't need it.

BugBear

 

[lurker]

I regrind old table knives that I buy from charity shops.
The best ones are square handled pseudo-bone (creamy yellow) that have a rounded tip, these are top quality Sheffield stainless steel and I make them into a wide range of tools such as blunt end scrapers.
Last lot were 4 for a pound. I grab them whenever I see them.

I see Sellars does something similar.

As my start point costs pennies I grind the blade down to less than an inch long in total, this gives more control.
You end up with something similar, but smaller, to Jacobs picture.

I am left handed so the flat face (against the square) is on the opposite side to bought ones, but the idea of buying such an easily made tool is beyond my comprehension.

Mine only have one bevel, I see other suggestions that appear to be bevelled both faces, like a conventional knife. Which to my mind means you damage the straight edge and dull the cutting edge every time you use it

 

[Sheffield Tony]

Mind you, the Crown one in Jacob's picture is about £5-6, and is available in left and right handed versions. If you put a price on your time, you'd be struggling to make one cheaper. If you enjoy making tools though (and why not ?), it is an easy job.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

They don't cost much, new.

https://www.toolnut.co.uk/collections/m ... king-knife

They're available left-handed and right-handed.

There are so many different types of marking knife available or easily made, that there's no 'right' answer. The scalpel is useful in tight situations, or where you need lightness and precision. For most run-of-the-mill fibre-severing, something a bit chunkier and easier to grasp suits me better, though, and my Marples has done well enough for me for decades. Others prefer the spear-point type. Very personal, marking knives.

(You beat me to it, Tony!)

 

[Just4Fun]

I regrind old table knives that I buy from charity shops.
The best ones are square handled pseudo-bone (creamy yellow) that have a rounded tip, these are top quality Sheffield stainless steel and I make them into a wide range of tools such as blunt end scrapers.

The knives I think you mean are typically thinner steel than I prefer for a marking knife. I did a similar thing but used a knife from a cheap 1970s plastic-handled cutlery set. The downside is that the plastic doesn't age well and was falling apart so I made a (crude) wooden handle. The steel may well not be such high quality but it is thicker and has no flex in it.

 

[lurker]

I regrind old table knives that I buy from charity shops.
The best ones are square handled pseudo-bone (creamy yellow) that have a rounded tip, these are top quality Sheffield stainless steel and I make them into a wide range of tools such as blunt end scrapers.

The knives I think you mean are typically thinner steel than I prefer for a marking knife. I did a similar thing but used a knife from a cheap 1970s plastic-handled cutlery set. The downside is that the plastic doesn't age well and was falling apart so I made a (crude) wooden handle. The steel may well not be such high quality but it is thicker and has no flex in it.

You are right , they are quite thin at full length, this is useful if you make them into scrapers etc.
But as I say, when making mark knifes, I reduce the length to around 25mm and this is very rigid as the older ones are tapered.

Off topic: Yesterday I ground one into a oyster shucker

 

[MikeG.]

A Stanley knife does the job perfectly, is universal, and doesn't have any issues with sharpening (ie you don't..........or at least, you don't need to..........you just stick a new blade in).

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I believe the only downside of the Stanley for this purpose is the double bevel - which for 90% of us 90% of the time doesn't matter.

 

[lurker]

A Stanley knife does the job perfectly, is universal, and doesn't have any issues with sharpening (ie you don't..........or at least, you don't need to..........you just stick a new blade in).

For some on this forum sharpening is a big part in their lives............apparently

I just enjoy using tools I have made for myself

 

[MikeG.]

I believe the only downside of the Stanley for this purpose is the double bevel - which for 90% of us 90% of the time doesn't matter.

For those who don't just want another pretty tool, leaning the blade over slightly eliminates that as an issue.

 

[thetyreman]

I use the same stanley knife as P.Sellers, it's a great simple knife that works perfectly, you can also buy blades for it, I got a pack of 50 so it may even outlast me.

 

[Student]

Many thanks to you all for your helpful advice; I’ll try and deal with the various points in turn.

As far as the scalpel is concerned, opinion seems to be that it’s not really suited to cutting knifewalls.

As far as AndyT and others liking the kiridashi knife is concerned, this seems to be just a one sided version of the v-pointed one I already have and which I find difficult to apply pressure with. Perhaps if I followed Derek’s idea and made a handle for it, I could apply more force. However, my skill set is nowhere sufficient to make a handle like Derek’s.

As such, I might be best if I just pay a few pounds and buy either the Crown or Marples marking knife from Axi or elsewhere for about £7 or get a Stanley 0-10-958 from Amazon for about the same price; I’ll probably do the latter.

As for the other helpful information received, Derek advises not cutting to the knife line and, instead sawing slightly off the line and then using the knife line for cleaning up with a chisel. This seems to be a different technique to that used by Paul Sellers but is used by Matt Estlea in his You Tube videos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfXmFEr ... Sa3wSZGXmc

Finally, Jacob mentions using a sharp pencil and I do use these at times, generally using an engineer’s pencil. However, following some recommendations on UKW some time ago, as a Christmas present I was bought “The Essential Woodworker” by Robert Wearing. In that, he mentions three ways of cross cut sawing. Third class is to mark the cut line with a pencil and saw to the line. Second class is to make a knife line, cut a nick on the far side of the cut and then saw to the knife line. The first class method is to use Paul Sellers knife wall method. He doesn’t mention Derek’s approach which appears to me a good one. As with sharpening, it seems that here is more than one way to do things; no wonder us newbies get confused.

 

[MikeG.]

I posted a week or two back showing the making of a rebate plane, and covered that technique:

I then cut down slightly away from the line so I could quickly chop out the bulk of the waste with a chisel without fear of damaging the finished edges:

Then carefully chisel down the faces:

 

[Jacob]

.....
Finally, Jacob mentions using a sharp pencil and I do use these at times, generally using an engineer’s pencil. However, following some recommendations on UKW some time ago, as a Christmas present I was bought “The Essential Woodworker” by Robert Wearing. In that, he mentions three ways of cross cut sawing. Third class is to mark the cut line with a pencil and saw to the line. Second class is to make a knife line, cut a nick on the far side of the cut and then saw to the knife line. The first class method is to use Paul Sellers knife wall method. He doesn’t mention Derek’s approach which appears to me a good one. As with sharpening, it seems that here is more than one way to do things; no wonder us newbies get confused.

Shouldn't believe everything Wearing says - as far as I know he was only ever a teacher and as such, quite rightly, was most bothered about how to get beginners to get good results. Hence his obsession with jigs etc.
There is nothing third class about using the simplest (and quickest) methods, quite the opposite, though it might take more craft skill to get a good result.
I don't know what an 'engineers' pencil is.
2H for precise marking, HB for general purposes, 2B for face and edge etc. Buy different brands of each grade then you have them colour coded.

 

[MikeG.]

A friend of mine used to run a very good joinery shop before his premature death. They used fine ball-point pens for their marking out.