Making your own Spindle Moulder cutters WIP

[Jacob]

Anyway I find a circular saw to be a much more scary machine as it's easier to take for granted and get your fingers too near.
My fingers never go anywhere near a moving spindle cutter or wobble saw.

 

[vally bar]

Wobble saw! now your talking.

 

[Teckel]

Wobble saw! now your talking.

:?: :?:

 

[Jacob]

One of these

Very safe to use on a spindle except when spinning the teeth are invisible and can give a very deep cut. Push sticks only!

 

[Modernist]

Since most people have Euro blocks there is no problem starting off with some plain rectangular knives, complete with pin holes, and grinding whatever you like. No safety issues unless they are well out of balance.

 

[Teckel]

One of these

Very safe to use on a spindle except when spinning the teeth are invisible and can give a very deep cut. Push sticks only!

I know what they are. I have two. I don't know what he means by his comment

 

[Jacob]

People still have in mind the highly deprecated wobble saw of old, which was an ordinary circular saw set off at an angle either by packing the washers with any old wedge -- a bit of card or whatever, or with purpose made eccentric wobble washers. It didn't work as well as the purpose made unit and has a reputation for being dangerous, which it probably would be in a TS but not so bad on a spindle.

 

[Against_The_Grain]

How did you find out the correct shjape for the edge? The cutting angle is not 90 degrees so the cutter will have to fit the moulding at an angle and that changes the edge shape a bit.

I consider making some cutters for the most common moulding profiles in old buildings in my area.

It all depends on the block, but typically the cutting angle is 30 degrees relative to the centre of rotation. If you were to cut a 30 degree piece off a sample moulding and use the end grain profile as a template to scribe onto the cutter blank you will get a near enough replication. If you don't have a sample moulding or you're making one up completely on the fly you'll have to use some form of cutter development, the most common way being to draw out the cutter block (looking from above) and profile in 1:1 scale on a sheet of paper, and develop as in this photo which shows a bevel development, but much more complex profiles can be achieved.

I make the profile at 90º and offer it up to the sample to make sure it fits well. Then back it off with a bevel. Then comes the really clever bit (well I think it is) - I deepen all the hollows a touch so that it makes a good fit when offered up at approximately the right cutting angle. This can be very accurate with no visible difference between the original and a new piece, although technically there will be variations of fractions of a mm. There will be variations in the original sample anyway.

That was known as the "Hit and Miss" method by wood machinists of a bygone era, it works perfectly well if you've got the patience for it!

 

[Jacob]

.........

That was known as the "Hit and Miss" method by wood machinists of a bygone era, it works perfectly well if you've got the patience for it!

It's easy and can give you a perfect shape! Not hit and miss at all. You offer up and adjust until you get a perfect fit
You'd need much more patience to draw it up theoretical text book style and "develop" shapes which in any case you'd still have to offer up and trim to fit your sample.
n.b. your show a square block which nobody should attempt to use - they are the main cause of the fear and loathing of spindle moulding - Whitehill blocks are very much safer, even pre limiter or pre retaining peg etc

 

[Against_The_Grain]

It's easy and can give you a perfect shape! Not hit and miss at all. You offer up and adjust until you get a perfect fit
You'd need much more patience to draw it up text book style and "develop" shapes which in any case you'd stil have to offer up and trim to fit your sample.

The only time you really need to develop is as I said in my original post, when you don't have a sample to hand or you're making a profile up, it's easy enough if you already have the existing profile to hand to reference off.

It was always commonly referred to as the "Hit and Miss" method, even in textbooks you'll see it referred to by this name, which I suppose might've originated from wood machinists or cutter grinders who were very particular about their craft and thought less of people who did it by offering the cutter up to the profile. It takes a great deal of care and skill whichever way you do it.

 

[Jacob]

The only time you really need to develop is as I said in my original post, when you don't have a sample to hand or you're making a profile up, it's easy enough if you already have the existing profile to hand to reference off.

It was always commonly referred to as the "Hit and Miss" method, even in textbooks you'll see it referred to by this name, which I suppose might've originated from wood machinists or cutter grinders who were very particular about their craft and thought less of people who did it by offering the cutter up to the profile. It takes a great deal of care and skill whichever way you do it.

If you haven't a sample available the best way to proceed is to make one up by hand and then use it as a pattern for the very precise so called "hit & miss" method.

 

[Against_The_Grain]

If you haven't a sample available the best way to proceed is to make one up by hand and then use it as a pattern.

Each to their own, I personally find profile development much faster, especially with a profile development machine, but I can see the appeal of having a pattern to begin with.

 

[Jacob]

Each to their own, I personally find profile development much faster, especially with a profile development machine,

Well presumably it would be - within the tolerances of a profile development machine, whatever that is, but for precision you'd really need a sample to offer up to and verify it. I've seen many examples of machine copies which aren't very precise at all.

but I can see the appeal of having a pattern to begin with.

What do you develop from and how do you apply your drawing to the cutter being worked on?

 

[Against_The_Grain]

Well presumably it would be - within the tolerances of a profile development machine, whatever that is, but for precision you'd really need a sample to offer up to and verify it. I've seen many examples of machine copies which aren't very precise at all.

Again, it's all down to the skill of the grinder, even when using a machine that grinds from a template. Profile development machines are quite a simple tool, like the Robinson Pro-Set, all you do is put in a drawing of the exact profile, set up the swing arm, and then mark the profile from the drawing to a template like a piece of formica point by point, it's essentially a game of joining the dots, then you cut the template to the dots and then use that to mark the cutter blank.

https://www.scosarg.com/media/leafl...pro-set' cutter profile developer type ZG.pdf

What do you develop from and how do you apply your drawing to the cutter being worked on?

You develop from a 1:1 scale drawing of the profile you require, historical moulding catalogues make for good reference, then you develop the profile as shown in the picture in my first post or with the profile developer, you can cut the resultant profile straight from the paper and use that as a template to mark the cutter, but I prefer to tape down a bit of thin card or formica as it's a bit more durable than paper.

 

[Jacob]

Looks very complicated!
What I do is spray one side of the cutter with grey metal primer which dries quickly and takes pencil marks. Then draw the profile on, 2H pencil, from sample cross section, or drawing, or freehand etc. Then grind it square. Then back it off at 30º. Then adjust to account for the cutting angle by offering it up to the sample - basically deepening the hollows a touch.

 

[deema]

My two penny’s worth. There are for me two types of wood workers, those who earn a living from it and the hobbyist. For the commercial shop, the cost of getting a Set of cutters made is simply costed into the job, it’s cheaper to have a set of cutters made (about £53 in 48 hrs for 55mm cutters and limiters) than it is to make an error running a few meters of stuff to find it’s not the profile you wanted or to find only one cutter cutting / not sharp consistently sharp around the profile etc not producing a good enough surface finish requiring extra work.
For the hobbies, the very limited number of times a standard off the shelf say 40mm Euro cutter isn’t available (say £20 for cutters and limiters, £12 for a new cutter when you have the limiters) it’s worth getting a dedicated cutter and limiters set made Again for £53.

Putting aside the H&S, when standard patterns are easily available and very cheap, the need or desire to grind your cutters is probably marginalised to shall we say ‘traditionalists’. I would never ever advocate anyone trying to make their own profile cutters, however people do, and that is their prerogative.

 

[Jacob]

My two penny’s worth. There are for me two types of wood workers, those who earn a living from it and the hobbyist. For the commercial shop, the cost of getting a Set of cutters made is simply costed into the job, it’s cheaper to have a set of cutters made (about £53 in 48 hrs for 55mm cutters and limiters) than it is to make an error running a few meters of stuff to find it’s not the profile you wanted or to find only one cutter cutting / not sharp consistently sharp around the profile etc not producing a good enough surface finish requiring extra work.
For the hobbies, the very limited number of times a standard off the shelf say 40mm Euro cutter isn’t available (say £20 for cutters and limiters, £12 for a new cutter when you have the limiters) it’s worth getting a dedicated cutter and limiters set made Again for £53.

Putting aside the H&S, when standard patterns are easily available and very cheap, the need or desire to grind your cutters is probably marginalised to shall we say ‘traditionalists’. I would never ever advocate anyone trying to make their own profile cutters, however people do, and that is their prerogative.

I was doing it commercially (using the cutters that is, not making them) and making my own cutters meant precise copying period detail. Would take only a little longer than time involved in getting someone else to do it, and a lot cheaper.
Also found that the copy machines didn't copy that brilliantly either - a lot of hand and eye needed to get them spot on.
Only one cutter cutting is no prob - that's how you set up a spindle anyway - either a matching pair with one set back a touch, or a non matching counterweight. Precise balance not essential as the difference on a heavy cutter block would be tiny. Too much imbalance would show up very obviously as rumbling bearings!

 

[RobinBHM]

My two penny’s worth. There are for me two types of wood workers, those who earn a living from it and the hobbyist. For the commercial shop, the cost of getting a Set of cutters made is simply costed into the job, it’s cheaper to have a set of cutters made (about £53 in 48 hrs for 55mm cutters and limiters) than it is to make an error running a few meters of stuff to find it’s not the profile you wanted or to find only one cutter cutting / not sharp consistently sharp around the profile etc not producing a good enough surface finish requiring extra work.
For the hobbies, the very limited number of times a standard off the shelf say 40mm Euro cutter isn’t available (say £20 for cutters and limiters, £12 for a new cutter when you have the limiters) it’s worth getting a dedicated cutter and limiters set made Again for £53.

Putting aside the H&S, when standard patterns are easily available and very cheap, the need or desire to grind your cutters is probably marginalised to shall we say ‘traditionalists’. I would never ever advocate anyone trying to make their own profile cutters, however people do, and that is their prerogative.

the company I use -I email a drawing of the profile, he sends me the cutters in 2 to 3 days

by the way £53 to a set of 55mm cutters with limiters is a very good price! -Whitehill are more than that

its not worth even thinking about grinding cutters

 

[deema]

@RobinBHM This is who I use, prices on the WEB site, he also does carbide which are a bit over £100 for a set of cutters and limiters and take a little longer as I doesn’t carry carbide on stock. I understand they are Whitehill blanks he uses for the HSS cutters.
https://www.profiledesigntooling.com/
@Jacob
The old profile machines are what was star of the art at the time, now a quick 3D scan will capture the profile to a degree of accuracy that cannot be achieved by eye. The ultra modern machines simply take the CAD model and grind the profiles precisely to the drawing.
If it worked well for you grinding your own, that’s brilliant, it’s a skill and a knowledge that is becoming increasing rare.

 

[RobinBHM]

This is who I use, prices on the WEB site, he also does carbide which are a bit over £100 for a set of cutters and limiters and take a little longer as I doesn’t carry carbide on stock. I understand they are Whitehill blanks he uses for the HSS cutters

many thanks for that, I shall keep that in mind next time I need cutters

the blank sizes are certainly Whitehill