Knife sharpening tips

[bugbear]

I use Japanese laminated knives which (like the tools) have laminated blades (64 layers) with the inner layer very hard idamascus steel.

I don't think they have a centre layer at all - the site simply claims lots of layers, giving a damascus effect.

This is more specifically known as "pattern welded"; "True Damascus" or "Wootz" steel has different chemistry, and extraordinarily high carbon levels.

BugBear

 

[thejhw]

I use Japanese laminated knives which (like the tools) have laminated blades (64 layers) with the inner layer very hard idamascus steel.

I don't think they have a centre layer at all - the site simply claims lots of layers, giving a damascus effect.

This is more specifically known as "pattern welded"; "True Damascus" or "Wootz" steel has different chemistry, and extraordinarily high carbon levels.

BugBear

I don't know the Tojiro knives and wouldn't like to comment on them, although Heston seems to like them!

I have a couple of Kai Shun knives which apparently do have a centre layer
"The Shun chef’s knife series is one of the world’s most extensive knife series made of damask steel. It is well received among the cooking elite and ambitious hobby chefs. Shun professional chef’s knives are made from a newly developed stainless damask steel with 32 layers. The inner layer is made from V-gold-10 steel. This steel is highly resistant to corrosion, extremely hard (61±1 HRC, 1.0% carbon, 1.5% cobalt) and the reason for the blade being incomparably and lastingly sharp."

However I have never known why they refer to "Damask" (which I thought was a type of cloth) steel, whilst the rest of the world calls it Damascus. All I know is they're bl.. really sharp! :shock:

Jim

 

[paulm]

I have a couple of Kai Shun knives which apparently do have a centre layer
All I know is they're bl.. really sharp! :shock:
Jim

Aren't they just Jim !!!

I picked up a couple in the January Sale at a local shop (after researching various brands on the net), and am totally impressed with them, amazingly sharp and very light and well balanced to handle.

Cheers, Paul

 

[Chris Knight]

Gentlemen of a certain age learnt how to sharpen their scout knives with a six inch blade on the nearest kerbstone. It's why my knives are always sharp. :mrgreen:

Sadly these simple skills have been eliminated from our society today..

 

[Anonymous]

I use Japanese laminated knives which (like the tools) have laminated blades (64 layers) with the inner layer very hard idamascus steel.

I don't think they have a centre layer at all - the site simply claims lots of layers, giving a damascus effect.

This is more specifically known as "pattern welded"; "True Damascus" or "Wootz" steel has different chemistry, and extraordinarily high carbon levels.

BugBear

The damascus centre layer and clearly visible on the knife itself - documentation with the set describes the manaufactring and states that it is damascus steel.
They stay sharper than any other knife I have owned (Japanese or european) including my German Wustoffs X50 Cr Mo V15

 

[Jake]

It looks like VG-10 is the center layer, like many of the top-end Japanese knives.

 

[bugbear]

...states that it is damascus steel.

I have no doubt.

The trouble is, "damascus steel" has two distinct meanings, both commonly used.

But since you're happy with the performance, this all seems unimportant.

BugBear

 

[Anonymous]

But since you're happy with the performance, this all seems unimportant.

BugBear

True, but you've gotten me interested and intrigued now BB :lol: and part of the reason i bought them is becasue of the history of damascus steel and japanese steel and blade expertise

I don't think they are VG-10 (link says this is stainless steel) as they are not stainless and do/will rust/tarnish if my wife leaves them wet on the kitchen counter :shock:

 

[Jake]

Could be - the knife world is even more full of semi-mystical navel-gazing than woodworking.

But a reference for eg http://www.zenimports.com.au/toj_1.html (and there are loads of others in a similar vein).

I don't think it is a very stainless stainless.

Reputedly, the blades are the same as in this series (where you can see they call it "stain resistant"):

http://nipponkitchen.com/acatalog/DP_Damascus.html

 

[bugbear]

But since you're happy with the performance, this all seems unimportant.

BugBear

True, but you've gotten me interested and intrigued now BB :lol: and part of the reason i bought them is becasue of the history of damascus steel and japanese steel and blade expertise

I don't think they are VG-10 (link says this is stainless steel) as they are not stainless and do/will rust/tarnish if my wife leaves them wet on the kitchen counter :shock:

OK, now you've made me do work!

The detailed description here is rather carefully worded:

http://www.tojiro.co.uk/damascus.shtml

Leaving aside the eloquent allusions to the history of both Damascus steel and Japanese blade making (which tell us nothing about the knife) it appears to describe a separate hard core, with multiple layers of stainless steel on either side.

So I think what's going on is really a triple lamination (soft-hard-soft), where the soft layers are themselves laminated. This fits nicely with your photo, where the centre layer (which makes the cutting edge) appears a good deal thicker than the layers that make the Damascus pattern.

I would suspect that the Damascus steel is made separately, either by repeated folding, or more likely, a simpler rolling process, and then the blade is made by laminating this fine-layered-material on both sides of the hard centre.

Ah - more info:

http://www.armorica.co.uk/Tojiro__Knive ... Knives/209

this confirms the VG-10 core:

BugBear

 

[gidon]

Here you go Ed :
http://www.axminster.co.uk/product.asp? ... DFO,10T2,1
(20% off for one week only)
Cheers
Gidon

 

[Jake]

Oh yes, back on topic:

this is about the same way I do it but with diamond stones (steel in between for western blades):

http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/HowToSharpen.html

Really don't see the need to hack at a kitchen knife with a grinder, even if it is a Tormek - that seems a bit like using a garden shredder to peel potatoes, but maybe I'm a little too precious about them.

 

[Anonymous]

OK, now you've made me do work!

The detailed description here is rather carefully worded:

http://www.tojiro.co.uk/damascus.shtml

Leaving aside the eloquent allusions to the history of both Damascus steel and Japanese blade making (which tell us nothing about the knife) it appears to describe a separate hard core, with multiple layers of stainless steel on either side.

So I think what's going on is really a triple lamination (soft-hard-soft), where the soft layers are themselves laminated. This fits nicely with your photo, where the centre layer (which makes the cutting edge) appears a good deal thicker than the layers that make the Damascus pattern.

I would suspect that the Damascus steel is made separately, either by repeated folding, or more likely, a simpler rolling process, and then the blade is made by laminating this fine-layered-material on both sides of the hard centre.

Ah - more info:

http://www.armorica.co.uk/Tojiro__Knive ... Knives/209

this confirms the VG-10 core:

BugBear

Nice work BB!!

I phoned their UK office earlier and the people working there have no idea what so ever about materials that their product uses :roll:

The link was useful - although there are 63 layers, not 62 :wink: :lol:

 

[bugbear]

I phoned their UK office earlier and the people working there have no idea what so ever about materials that their product uses :roll:

Google is my friend

BugBear

 

[Jake]

It's exactly what they do - the two outer layers are themselves layered up from the multiple hard and soft stainless layers, sandwiched around the VG-10 core, forged (a lot) and then when the knife is finished the sides are etched a bit to highlight the 'suminogashi' pattern.

 

[Harbo]

I have a few hand made knives by Shinichi Watanabe which I bought a few years ago when he was using only the traditional knife materials (inc. a Kuouchi Kakkiri in Damascus Blue Steel).

For his more expensive ranges, he now seems to use the V-Gold W steels and a Damascus steel from Damasteel in Sweden.

http://www.watanabeblade.com/english/special/damascuschefknife.htm

http://www.watanabeblade.com/english/special/damascusknife.htm

Interesting set of photos showing the knives being made and a bit about the layering - scroll down for the photos:

http://www.watanabeblade.com/english/pro/index.htm

I have tried all sorts of ways to sharpen, but the best way to get consistent results with the minimum of wasted steel is the Edge Pro system.
His cheap range is also very good - I let the rest of the family use them!

Rod

 

[Jake]

I have a few hand made knives by Shinichi Watanabe which I bought a few years ago when he was using only the traditional knife materials (inc. a Kuouchi Kakkiri in Damascus Blue Steel).

He still does the blue and white steel ones - there are different pages (and prices!) on his site. edit: ignore me - I missed your reference to his 'cheap range'!

edge-pro

I've got one too - I kind of get on with it as a 'steel' for touch-ups with the white stones in, but not entirely as a sharpening system. I think that's probably my fault though, but I prefer going to the flat diamond and ceramic bench stones.

 

[thejhw]

[wife leaves them wet on the kitchen counter :shock:

You let your wife use them? :shock:

My wife has her very own set of Sabatier knives I bought for her from Bookers. :wink: I keep them sharp for her, but let her use my knives? :evil:
Jim

 

[Anonymous]

[wife leaves them wet on the kitchen counter :shock:

You let your wife use them? :shock:

My wife has her very own set of Sabatier knives I bought for her from Bookers. :wink: I keep them sharp for her, but let her use my knives? :evil:
Jim

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Wife and daughter - they are just knives even if a touch expensive :wink: (and I have warned them both about how sharp they are!!)

 

[bugbear]

Hmm. Personally I've got a few James Martin Stellar Sabatier.

I love Stellar stuff, because it's more or less well made, and almost always on sale at half price.

The 8" Cooks Knife was 12 quid!

After a brief talking to on my sharpening stones, it cuts nicely, balances OK, and touch up sharpening with a butcher's steel means I only have to go back to the stone every coupla' months.

I'm not strongly motivated to seek out "magic" knives at super high prices; I have little doubt that some of them are very good indeed, with production costs honestly reflected in their high retail cost, but I just don't have a problem to which they are the solution.

We're only cutting meat, fish 'n' veg!

I feel roughly the same about the current vogue for "super" marking knives. While quality-for-quality's sake is fine (I adore the elaborate trammels that pattern makers used to make), again, I feel that marking out is not a task with difficult functional requirments.

BugBear